Before we get into your other thoughts and questions...
Do you think it is possible for something to be admired as beautiful, while at the same time rejecting the pursuit of creating such beauty, because a particular art creation is not expedient or edifying?
Or do these concepts feel like an oxymoron to you?
Can you think of an example to aid me in my response?
Maybe fireworks shows?
Yes, my city spends about $350,000 each year for 40 minutes of spectacular fireworks.
Another 350K plus is probably spent on travel by people coming to see the show.
Other examples...
-Nude paintings or sculptures
-Billion dollar cathedrals
-Giving one's life to musical development so as to be able to create musical pieces that are so complex that they are only accessible/beneficial to a few people. e.g. Late Romantic Polyphony, Dodecaphonic (12-Tone) Music, The Fugue
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Ernie wrote:
Good teaching is an art. (Plain Anabaptists send their teachers to skilled teachers and publish books on this.)
Good preaching is an art. (Most Plain Anabaptists enjoy listening to preachers who have mastered this art.)
Good singing is an art.
I agree, but we don't treat them the same. I doubt many churches would be content to read sermons from the Martyrs Mirror or some other august source in place of preaching/teaching from a person in their assembly. Yet we do something similar with music.
In what way?
I hear preachers and teachers saying things that are not original with them and in a way that is not original with them while adding some of their own thoughts and style.
CA produced hymnbooks do the same. They have old hymns plus new contemporary ones.
It seems to me we are a lot more comfortable with unknown or distant people writing all our songs than with unknown or distant people doing all our preaching. We demand a certain closeness with preaching and teaching but the writing of songs seems to be a different category.
HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 4:40 pmWhen something beautiful is performed or created it necessarily draws one to God because God is the source and the standard of Beauty. Beautiful things are Good and True and those are the very attributes of God.
Before we get into your other thoughts and questions...
Do you think it is possible for something to be admired as beautiful, while at the same time rejecting the pursuit of creating such beauty, because a particular art creation is not expedient or edifying?
Or do these concepts feel like an oxymoron to you?
"All things are lawful but not all things are expedient "
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:38 am
I'm friends with a number of the Shenandoah instructors and have spent hours with them discussing their observations about arts and Plain Anabaptists. They tell me that despite teaching (like what Julian is doing for the Hutterites), many musicians exit the Plain Anabaptist world because they think don't fit. Shenandoah music camp does give people a taste for something that they are not going to find in the rest of the Plain Anabaptist world.
The ones who stay don't necessarily feel like they fit either, but they are willing to put up with the "rejection" and the incongruities, because they see value in many of the other aspects of the culture.
I think this is true. It's hard to have an interest that is good in character but not shared or maybe looked at a bit questioningly by your community.
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:38 am
I'm friends with a number of the Shenandoah instructors and have spent hours with them discussing their observations about arts and Plain Anabaptists. They tell me that despite teaching (like what Julian is doing for the Hutterites), many musicians exit the Plain Anabaptist world because they think don't fit. Shenandoah music camp does give people a taste for something that they are not going to find in the rest of the Plain Anabaptist world.
The ones who stay don't necessarily feel like they fit either, but they are willing to put up with the "rejection" and the incongruities, because they see value in many of the other aspects of the culture.
I think this is true. It's hard to have an interest that is good in character but not shared or maybe looked at a bit questioningly by your community.
Yes, exactly. I remember having a similar sense when I went to Faith Builders and became interested in college education, and ended up doing distance learning because so many people in my church at the time were against going to college. Choral music was a little the same way. I wouldn't call it rejection, just some snide comments and eyebrow raising because it wasn't what they were used to. It didn't really bother me all that much, these sorts of reactions are pretty much normal when something new comes around.
I heard (second-hand) from someone on the board at Shenandoah Music Camp that they consider the elitism there a real problem, to the point of discussing just shutting the whole thing down.
One of the reasons plain Anabaptists tend to be sceptical of the arts is beacuse of the association with elitism. We don't think that shows good Christian character and is not a virtue. The world tends to think it is.
JohnH wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 8:57 am
I heard (second-hand) from someone on the board at Shenandoah Music Camp that they consider the elitism there a real problem, to the point of discussing just shutting the whole thing down.
One of the reasons plain Anabaptists tend to be sceptical of the arts is beacuse of the association with elitism. We don't think that shows good Christian character and is not a virtue. The world tends to think it is.
That would be unfortunate, because if one is put in a position where one is expected to lead congregational worship, they can teach you enough so you don't fall flat on your face. I just sent a young man there for that reason. Some of us who are not musically gifted need the help.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 9:43 am
That would be unfortunate, because if one is put in a position where one is expected to lead congregational worship, they can teach you enough so you don't fall flat on your face. I just sent a young man there for that reason. Some of us who are not musically gifted need the help.
My denomination doesn't attend Shenandoah Music Camp or other music camps or have much in the way of any kind of formal instruction, yet there are plenty of capable people to lead singing. (There generally are more people willing to lead singing than there is a need for people to do so.)
I'm not convinced "elitism" in pursuit of art is necessarily a bad thing. My sister paints portraits for a career and has won awards at high level of her craft, she has done portraits for the federal courthouse, her work is truly elite, very expensive and represented by an agent. She is not getting rich because each piece represents a massive time investment. I'm not sure what is wrong about this.
barnhart wrote: ↑Wed Jul 08, 2026 9:54 am
I'm not convinced "elitism" in pursuit of art is necessarily a bad thing. My sister paints portraits for a career and has won awards at high level of her craft, she has done portraits for the federal courthouse, her work is truly elite, very expensive and represented by an agent. She is not getting rich because each piece represents a massive time investment. I'm not sure what is wrong about this.
That would be a difference between plain people in general and not-plain people in general. Overall, plain people have a distaste for elitism, even if it is a problem in many plain circles.
If one wants to embrace elitism, one can certainly do so (and make a case for it), but it represents a departure from plain Anabaptism overall. One of the tensions in the plain world is the handful of groups which have tried to partially embrace elitism (such as attending universities) versus the vast majority that generally have rejected it.
