CAM Molestation Issue

[DrWojo]

This is not our decision to make, thankfully. And I would use divorce as an absolute last resort to protect herself and the child. I know of situations where a church stepped in and had couples permanently separate, but no small children were in the picture at that point.

As mentioned, I'm glad this is not my call to make. I didn't realize he had a family until today.

We know that long-term child molestors like JMast tend to be highly manipulative and deceitful personalities. That is their stock in trade. So there is no reason to believe he hasn't acted the same way with his family and that they haven't been subject to the same relentless deceit, grooming, and manipulation for years and years. Anyway, I find this train of discussion to be unfruitful. Clearly we are talking about an utterly dysfunctional family. And he is unlikely to ever have contact with his family for decades that isn't with bulletproof glass inbetween.

The more important discussion is how are AB organizations going to respond to make sure that new JMasts don't creep into our midst and be given positions of unsupervised control over children. And how is AB culture going to evolve to make sure that these problems don't fester in secret like they have in the past.

What kind of counsel you'd give to a wife like this is highly relevant to the discussion of how the AB culture must evolve to ensure these problems don't fester in secret like they do now.

Secondly, the primary discussion should not be "how to keep them out of organizations" but how to nip them in the bud. How to expose and deal with them immediately before they have time to climb the ladder of leadership in their homes, communities, and churches.

So are you saying to make an example of JMast to Anabaptists everywhere by having his wife divorce him?

I hear what you’re saying, but wonder if you’re proposing an opening of the proverbial Pandora’s Box.

I don’t have the proper illustration, but the best I can come up with is euthanasia. If you want to make a single allowance, say for the terminally ill, what would it lead to? Same with divorce, down the road would people recommend it because their spouse is no longer attractive, or exciting?

[Grace]

It makes me wonder how much say Conservative Anabaptist women have in what happens to them. I don't know if any of you read the Pittsburgh Post Gazette series that was done recently on sexual abuse in Mennonite/Amish circles, but the case of "Kay" and "Shirk" illustrates just how messed up things have gotten in regards to women always submitting to their husbands and church authority no matter what.

I have been in CA churches for 48 years, and three different conferences. What was described in the "Kay" and "Shirk" story in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette was an anomaly and not what is normal within the CA culture. Please don't stereotype all Mennonite/Amish women/marriages with vendetta driven stories like some (not all) stories like those in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Over the years I have seen a few marriages, where it appeared the men were very controlling and you had to wonder what went on behind closed doors. But they were few and far between.

You have to realize, Newspapers have to sell their papers, so the stories need to be dramatic, borderline shocking. Our local paper in Lancaster county, will jump on any story that puts the plain community in a bad light.

[Aurien]

It makes me wonder how much say Conservative Anabaptist women have in what happens to them. I don't know if any of you read the Pittsburgh Post Gazette series that was done recently on sexual abuse in Mennonite/Amish circles, but the case of "Kay" and "Shirk" illustrates just how messed up things have gotten in regards to women always submitting to their husbands and church authority no matter what.

I have been in CA churches for 48 years, and three different conferences. What was described in the "Kay" and "Shirk" story in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette was an anomaly and not what is normal within the CA culture. Please don't stereotype all Mennonite/Amish women/marriages with vendetta driven stories like some (not all) stories like those in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. You have to realize, Newspapers have to sell their papers, so the stories need to be dramatic, borderline shocking. Our local paper in Lancaster county, will jump on any story that puts the plain community in a bad light.

1. I'm not stereotyping all Mennonite/Amish marriages. Some are excellent, some are good, some are ok, some are bad, and some are terrible.
2. No it's not an anomaly. Neither are things like Jeriah Mast's case.
3. The story was not vendetta driven.
4. The stories in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette were not purposely made to be dramatic and borderline shocking. I read all of the posts and the reporters were fair and balanced in their reporting. They didn't insert their opinions into the articles. They just gave the facts. It's not their fault that you don't like the facts they gave.
5. I've read Lancaster County articles about plain people who have committed crimes. I don't think the newspapers jump on stories about plain people anymore than they do stories about "secular" people.
6. Your experience is not representative of the experience of every person's experience in the CA community. You would be surprised at the number of "normal" happy looking people who are hiding dark secrets.

[Ken]

This is not our decision to make, thankfully. And I would use divorce as an absolute last resort to protect herself and the child. I know of situations where a church stepped in and had couples permanently separate, but no small children were in the picture at that point.

As mentioned, I'm glad this is not my call to make. I didn't realize he had a family until today.

We know that long-term child molestors like JMast tend to be highly manipulative and deceitful personalities. That is their stock in trade. So there is no reason to believe he hasn't acted the same way with his family and that they haven't been subject to the same relentless deceit, grooming, and manipulation for years and years. Anyway, I find this train of discussion to be unfruitful. Clearly we are talking about an utterly dysfunctional family. And he is unlikely to ever have contact with his family for decades that isn't with bulletproof glass inbetween.

The more important discussion is how are AB organizations going to respond to make sure that new JMasts don't creep into our midst and be given positions of unsupervised control over children. And how is AB culture going to evolve to make sure that these problems don't fester in secret like they have in the past.

What kind of counsel you'd give to a wife like this is highly relevant to the discussion of how the AB culture must evolve to ensure these problems don't fester in secret like they do now.

Secondly, the primary discussion should not be "how to keep them out of organizations" but how to nip them in the bud. How to expose and deal with them immediately before they have time to climb the ladder of leadership in their homes, communities, and churches.

I don't think ANY of us here are in any position to give counsel to JMast's wife. We know very little of their relationship and how he treats her and her children. My own response and advice to her would be that her first obligation in this instance is to her children and doing what needs to be done to maintain her family in the likely permanent absence of her husband. Should she wish to purge him from her life by divorce, that would be her call. We have absolutely no idea of the extent to which their relationship was constructed upon an edifice of deceit and/or abuse. And I would argue that a marriage constructed on a foundation of deceit from day one is really not a true marriage in any real sense, even if it was consecrated in a church.

[Grace]

1. I'm not stereotyping all Mennonite/Amish marriages. Some are excellent, some are good, some are ok, some are bad, and some are terrible.
2. No it's not an anomaly. Neither are things like Jeriah Mast's case.
3. The story was not vendetta driven.
4. The stories in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette were not purposely made to be dramatic and borderline shocking. I read all of the posts and the reporters were fair and balanced in their reporting. They didn't insert their opinions into the articles. They just gave the facts. It's not their fault that you don't like the facts they gave.
5. I've read Lancaster County articles about plain people who have committed crimes. I don't think the newspapers jump on stories about plain people anymore than they do stories about "secular" people.
6. Your experience is not representative of the experience of every person's experience in the CA community. You would be surprised at the number of "normal" happy looking people who are hiding dark secrets.

1. “But the case of "Kay" and "Shirk" illustrates just how messed up things have gotten in regards to women always submitting to their husbands and church authority no matter what”. If you meant to say “some” women always submitting to their husbands and church authority”, then say so, instead of making a blanket statement, which is stereotyping.
2. I choose to believe that that there are less “Jeriah Mast” cases then what is projected. And I sincerely hope I am right.
3.& 4.There was several stories in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, and some seemed sincere, some seemed vendetta driven. I don’t mind facts, but when you get to be my age, you know there are always two sides to a story. I have seen marriages that did fail, some very close to our family. And there is a phrase, “It takes two to fight”. In every case “both” partners did things majorly wrong. Never have I seen a marriage go bad, that one partner was clean as the wind driven snow, or that only one had contributed to a marriage going bad. Yes, there always was one who may have committed a worse deed, than the other, but both contributed to the messed up marriage.
5. Lancaster Newspapers have a habit to interject a plain sect person’s religion, “Amish” or “Plain Sect” into their headlines/ articles, which may be about incidents that have nothing to do with a person’s religion. How often have you seen “Catholic/Methodist/Lutheran used in headlines/articles in relation to happenings that have nothing to do with religion. A side note: Since Brett Hambright no longer works for Lancaster Newspapers; I do think they are doing better in that.
6. Life experiences do form a person’s perspective, but I still believe the amount of people who have happy normal marriages, far outnumber those who don’t.

Sometimes, it seems as if some people are searching for sexual abuse stories/abuse of women stories, not because they care about the hurting victims, but because it provides material to denigrate Conservative Anabaptist's. They won’t come out and say so, outright, but they always give off subtle indications of their bias'. Then there are those that do care about the victims, and thankfully, do so without adding the denigration, in the mix.

[Aurien]

1. I'm not stereotyping all Mennonite/Amish marriages. Some are excellent, some are good, some are ok, some are bad, and some are terrible.
2. No it's not an anomaly. Neither are things like Jeriah Mast's case.
3. The story was not vendetta driven.
4. The stories in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette were not purposely made to be dramatic and borderline shocking. I read all of the posts and the reporters were fair and balanced in their reporting. They didn't insert their opinions into the articles. They just gave the facts. It's not their fault that you don't like the facts they gave.
5. I've read Lancaster County articles about plain people who have committed crimes. I don't think the newspapers jump on stories about plain people anymore than they do stories about "secular" people.
6. Your experience is not representative of the experience of every person's experience in the CA community. You would be surprised at the number of "normal" happy looking people who are hiding dark secrets.

1. “But the case of "Kay" and "Shirk" illustrates just how messed up things have gotten in regards to women always submitting to their husbands and church authority no matter what”. If you meant to say “some” women always submitting to their husbands and church authority”, then say so, instead of making a blanket statement, which is stereotyping.
2. I choose to believe that that there are less “Jeriah Mast” cases then what is projected. And I sincerely hope I am right.
3.& 4.There was several stories in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, and some seemed sincere, some seemed vendetta driven. I don’t mind facts, but when you get to be my age, you know there are always two sides to a story. I have seen marriages that did fail, some very close to our family. And there is a phrase, “It takes two to fight”. In every case “both” partners did things majorly wrong. Never have I seen a marriage go bad, that one partner was clean as the wind driven snow, or that only one had contributed to a marriage going bad. Yes, there always was one who may have committed a worse deed, than the other, but both contributed to the messed up marriage.
5. Lancaster Newspapers have a habit to interject a plain sect person’s religion, “Amish” or “Plain Sect” into their headlines/ articles, which may be about incidents that have nothing to do with a person’s religion. How often have you seen “Catholic/Methodist/Lutheran used in headlines/articles in relation to happenings that have nothing to do with religion. A side note: Since Brett Hambright no longer works for Lancaster Newspapers; I do think they are doing better in that.
6. Life experiences do form a person’s perspective, but I still believe the amount of people who have happy normal marriages, far outnumber those who don’t.

Sometimes, it seems as if some people are searching for sexual abuse stories/abuse of women stories, not because they care about the hurting victims, but because it provides material to denigrate Conservative Anabaptist's. They won’t come out and say so, outright, but they always give off subtle indications of their bias'. Then there are those that do care about the victims, and thankfully, do so without adding the denigration, in the mix.

Grace, why are you so defensive regarding the exposure of abuse in the CA community?
Why do you seem to dislike those who speak openly about the sexual abuse they or their family experienced?
Why do you seem to dislike Trudy Metzger so much? She's very passionate about what she does but it does not appear to me at all that her purpose is to denigrate or destroy Anabaptist communities. She and many others want the sexual abuse to stop happening, to stop being covered up, and to see healing for the victims and, if possible, restoration for the perpetrators.

[Grace]

Grace, why are you so defensive regarding the exposure of abuse in the CA community?
Why do you seem to dislike those who speak openly about the sexual abuse they or their family experienced?
Why do you seem to dislike Trudy Metzger so much? She's very passionate about what she does but it does not appear to me at all that her purpose is to denigrate or destroy Anabaptist communities. She and many others want the sexual abuse to stop happening, to stop being covered up, and to see healing for the victims and, if possible, restoration for the perpetrators.

I might ask, why are you so defensive as well? Do you need to go back and reread what I actually said? And why do you insinuate I don't want sexual abuse to stop, and the covering up to stop, with healing provided for the victims when I never said that? Do you believe there is always one side to a story? Do you believe that newspaper articles are always true to a fault? Do you believe objective rational thinking should be abandoned and we go by subjective emotions in reporting on sexual abuse? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, how sad.

Why get so defensive about Trudy ? Why not let her work speak for itself?

And I do not dislike Trudy, she means well, but she either has some serious bias' or she needs a good editor to help her write her blog. An example would be in the last blog entry, she used the word "bonnet" in a snide, sarcastic manner, in reference to the woman's prayer covering/veiling. The woman's prayer covering/veiling comes from an understanding of the Scriptures that many CA women and men hold dear. Why would someone use that term when many of the women she wants to help wear a prayer covering/veil? I know you might say, I need to take that up with her, and use Matthew 18, but she already made her views clear on that. And yes it might seem petty, in comparison to some of her other posts, that she later needed to either edit or back pedal on. But it is those subtle things that are either from biased thinking or just very careless. I hope it was just carelessness.

[Aurien]

Grace, why are you so defensive regarding the exposure of abuse in the CA community?
Why do you seem to dislike those who speak openly about the sexual abuse they or their family experienced?
Why do you seem to dislike Trudy Metzger so much? She's very passionate about what she does but it does not appear to me at all that her purpose is to denigrate or destroy Anabaptist communities. She and many others want the sexual abuse to stop happening, to stop being covered up, and to see healing for the victims and, if possible, restoration for the perpetrators.

I might ask, why are you so defensive as well? Do you need to go back and reread what I actually said? And why do you insinuate I don't want sexual abuse to stop, and the covering up to stop, with healing provided for the victims when I never said that? Do you believe there is always one side to a story? Do you believe that newspaper articles are always true to a fault? Do you believe objective rational thinking should be abandoned and we go by subjective emotions in reporting on sexual abuse? If you answered "yes" to any of these questions, how sad.

Why get so defensive about Trudy ? Why not let her work speak for itself?

And I do not dislike Trudy, she means well, but she either has some serious bias' or she needs a good editor to help her write her blog. An example would be in the last blog entry, she used the word "bonnet" in a snide, sarcastic manner, in reference to the woman's prayer covering/veiling. The woman's prayer covering/veiling comes from an understanding of the Scriptures that many CA women and men hold dear. Why would someone use that term when many of the women she wants to help wear a prayer covering/veil? I know you might say, I need to take that up with her, and use Matthew 18, but she already made her views clear on that. And yes it might seem petty, in comparison to some of her other posts, that she later needed to either edit or back pedal on. But it is those subtle things that are very revealing.

I did not insinuate that you do not want sexual abuse to stop. I was giving the reasons why Trudy and others want sexual abuse to stop to provide a contrast to the people who think that she does this because she wants to denigrate Mennonites.

I am not going to converse with you any further. It's serving no purpose. You are steadfastly set in your views and there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

Matthew 23:24 You [spiritually] blind guides, who strain out a gnat [consuming yourselves with miniscule matters] and swallow a camel [ignoring and violating God’s precepts]!

Matthew 7:4-6 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me get the speck out of your eye,’ when there is a log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite (play-actor, pretender), first get the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Psalm 33:4-5 For the word of the Lord is right; And all His work is done in faithfulness.
He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the Lord.

[Grace]

I did not insinuate that you do not want sexual abuse to stop. I was giving the reasons why Trudy and others want sexual abuse to stop to provide a contrast to the people who think that she does this because she wants to denigrate Mennonites.

I am not going to converse with you any further. It's serving no purpose. You are steadfastly set in your views and there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

Matthew 23:24 You [spiritually] blind guides, who strain out a gnat [consuming yourselves with miniscule matters] and swallow a camel [ignoring and violating God’s precepts]!

Matthew 7:4-6 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me get the speck out of your eye,’ when there is a log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite (play-actor, pretender), first get the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Psalm 33:4-5 For the word of the Lord is right; And all His work is done in faithfulness.
He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the Lord.

Thanks for the Bible verses. May I suggest you take them and read them, while looking in a mirror. And I will do the same.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

[Aurien]

I did not insinuate that you do not want sexual abuse to stop. I was giving the reasons why Trudy and others want sexual abuse to stop to provide a contrast to the people who think that she does this because she wants to denigrate Mennonites.

I am not going to converse with you any further. It's serving no purpose. You are steadfastly set in your views and there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind.

Matthew 23:24 You [spiritually] blind guides, who strain out a gnat [consuming yourselves with miniscule matters] and swallow a camel [ignoring and violating God’s precepts]!

Matthew 7:4-6 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me get the speck out of your eye,’ when there is a log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite (play-actor, pretender), first get the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
6 “Do not give that which is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, for they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Psalm 33:4-5 For the word of the Lord is right; And all His work is done in faithfulness.
He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the Lord.

Thanks for the Bible verses. May I suggest you take them and read them, while looking in a mirror. And I will do the same.

Proverbs 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

I expected a reply like that from you.