Divorce question

[R7ehr]

My denomination uses that as justification for why you should separate from a spouse when a member marries a non-member. This injunction is clearly aimed, though, at telling men of the Israelite nation they needed to separate from non-Israelite wives. Such a notion at all would be extremely offensive to modern-day people.

What? Your denomination permits (or encourages?) separation in the case of a member marrying a non-member?

A member choosing to enter a marriage outside of church is grounds for immediate excommunication. I thought other conservative Anabaptists generally had the same policy - you can't just run around marrying anyone you want.

My question wasn’t about excommunication, it is about separation. Lets say the member was excommunicated for his action.
What does the path of redemption look like in your church? They must divorce in order to become a member again?

[JohnH]

Whoops! I meant, "It would make no sense to say you're not bound but you still must either *remain unmarried* or reconcile, since that is precisely what Paul is saying they are not bound to do." I'm not sure if that changes your question. But in vs. 11, the wife who has left must either remain unmarried or reconcile.

I would interpret verse 10 and 11 as being directed at people who are church members as well, not things that somehow applied to non-members, since Paul is clearly addressing church members in this passage.

Both husbands and wives are instructed not to leave their spouses. This wouldn't apply to people whose spouses abandon them or engage in adultery/affairs (I consider adultery/cheating to be "leaving your spouse", although I could understand an argument for otherwise).

Wives have an additional command if they do leave their husband (in contradiction of what this passage teaches), they need to not married someone else, or else be reconciled to their husband they left.

Husbands oddly enough have no such "escape hatch". They're just told not to divorce.

I would be interested in hearing other people's views on this (we seem to have nearly all the common views represented here).

[JohnH]

My question wasn’t about excommunication, it is about separation. Lets say the member was excommunicated for his action.
What does the path of redemption look like in your church? They must divorce in order to become a member again?

In most cases, they are encouraged to wait a while and see if their spouse wants to join the church too. If their spouse becomes converted and is willing to join the church, then they can be reaccepted after that. The person who was originally a member is held strictly to a standard they can't ever marry anyone else, regardless of if their spouse cheats on them, divorces/abandons them, etc., because they decided to enter into a marriage outside of the church, and the church then lacks authority to "bind or loose" or make judgments about that marriage in the future.

Otherwise, they can't be reaccepted unless they separate from their "foreign" marriage, much like the example in Ezra.

(If 2 members run off to the justice of the peace, they also get excommunicated for engaging in marriage outside of the church. But it's obviously a little more likely that they will both be willing to return. It just means there is no church wedding and it's rather embarrassing for the couple involved.)

Basically the church considers itself to hold the doorway to marriage, but for members only... for non-members, the doorway to marriage is open and closed by God and nature. I think this has caused some confusion that Holdemans think marriage outside of our church isn't valid.

[Soloist]

My question wasn’t about excommunication, it is about separation. Lets say the member was excommunicated for his action.
What does the path of redemption look like in your church? They must divorce in order to become a member again?

In most cases, they are encouraged to wait a while and see if their spouse wants to join the church too. If their spouse becomes converted and is willing to join the church, then they can be reaccepted after that. The person who was originally a member is held strictly to a standard they can't ever marry anyone else, regardless of if their spouse cheats on them, divorces/abandons them, etc., because they decided to enter into a marriage outside of the church, and the church then lacks authority to "bind or loose" or make judgments about that marriage in the future.

Otherwise, they can't be reaccepted unless they separate from their "foreign" marriage, much like the example in Ezra.

(If 2 members run off to the justice of the peace, they also get excommunicated for engaging in marriage outside of the church. But it's obviously a little more likely that they will both be willing to return. It just means there is no church wedding and it's rather embarrassing for the couple involved.)

Basically the church considers itself to hold the doorway to marriage, but for members only... for non-members, the doorway to marriage is open and closed by God and nature. I think this has caused some confusion that Holdemans think marriage outside of our church isn't valid.

Wife: I always thought this was really unfair to the non-member who possibly knew nothing about how the Holdeman worked. New Testament seems to suggest you stay with your unbelieving spouse as long as they are willing to have you. Wives are supposed to win their husbands with a meek and quiet spirit, and first Corinthians 7 also talks about staying with the unbelieving spouse unless they choose to leave. I personally think they made a vow, whether or not it was a wise decision, and they should stand by it, since the only exception clause Jesus may have given for a divorce is fornication.

Also, in this situation, the spouse being left doesn’t even have to be a heathen. Just not willing to join the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. Maybe if the person went back to the Holdeman church , but stayed with their spouse and loved them the way the Bible said to, they might be eventually won over as well. if not, the member would at least have a clean conscience.

[JohnH]

Wife: I always thought this was really unfair to the non-member who possibly knew nothing about how the Holdeman worked. New Testament seems to suggest you stay with your unbelieving spouse as long as they are willing to have you. Wives are supposed to win their husbands with a meek and quiet spirit, and first Corinthians 7 also talks about staying with the unbelieving spouse unless they choose to leave. I personally think they made a vow, whether or not it was a wise decision, and they should stand by it, since the only exception clause Jesus may have given for a divorce is fornication.

The NT doesn't say anything about a believer who decides to leave Christianity and marry an unbeliever. It certainly teaches that we shouldn't do that (in my opinion).

Practically speaking, Anabaptists have always held to closed marriage practices. If there aren't any consequences for violating that, then it will happen.

Also, in this situation, the spouse being left doesn’t even have to be a heathen. Just not willing to join the Church of God in Christ Mennonite. Maybe if the person went back to the Holdeman church , but stayed with their spouse and loved them the way the Bible said to, they might be eventually won over as well. if not, the member would at least have a clean conscience.

Generally speaking the church doesn't really encourage people to just run off and leave their spouse to try to re-join and be a member, but rather encourages them to try to live with their spouse in an understanding way to eventually win them over with the gospel. I used to be sceptical of this as well until I saw it actually happen with my own eyes and that person became a Christian and joined.

Practically speaking, nearly all of these marriages involved two people who grow up in the Holdeman circles. One is a member and one isn't. They both know exactly what they are doing and what they are getting into.

Ultimately, Holdemans are a group that believes in church authority and in maintaining the doorways of baptism, communion, and marriage. Many people with a more evangelical mindset prefer one with individual authority over some of all of those things, and without church discipline with consequences. For someone who feels and believes that way, the Holdemans aren't a good fit. Most other plainer Anabaptist groups aren't either. Realistically, in Old Order circles, you cannot marry outside the Old Order and expect to attend communion again until many, many years pass.

[Soloist]

The NT doesn't say anything about a believer who decides to leave Christianity and marry an unbeliever. It certainly teaches that we shouldn't do that (in my opinion).

Practically speaking, Anabaptists have always held to closed marriage practices. If there aren't any consequences for violating that, then it will happen.

Wife: The New Testament doesn’t say anything about it. It says a lot about marriage and divorce though. The only situation where I can think of separation being encouraged/required would be Herod/Herodias and the guy who was with his father’s wife.

It’s never good to marry an unbeliever, but I think the general consensus among the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world would probably be somewhere along the saying that, “You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.” I also personally think that’s the New Testament principle.

You might be right about old orders, but I would highly doubt they would tell them to get divorced, unless someone had already been previously married. There might be some sort of time of proving otherwise, though. Then again, this is from someone who’s never been to Pennsylvania or Ohio, so maybe somebody else can tell me if old order Amish/Mennonites would recommend divorce in that situation.

[JohnH]

The NT doesn't say anything about a believer who decides to leave Christianity and marry an unbeliever. It certainly teaches that we shouldn't do that (in my opinion).

Practically speaking, Anabaptists have always held to closed marriage practices. If there aren't any consequences for violating that, then it will happen.

Wife: The New Testament doesn’t say anything about it. It says a lot about marriage and divorce though. The only situation where I can think of separation being encouraged/required would be Herod/Herodias and the guy who was with his father’s wife.

It’s never good to marry an unbeliever, but I think the general consensus among the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world would probably be somewhere along the saying that, “You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.” I also personally think that’s the New Testament principle.

You might be right about old orders, but I would highly doubt they would tell them to get divorced, unless someone had already been previously married. There might be some sort of time of proving otherwise, though. Then again, this is from someone who’s never been to Pennsylvania or Ohio, so maybe somebody else can tell me if old order Amish/Mennonites would recommend divorce in that situation.

I never said divorce was required or expected or even allowed.

I said they would be expected to “separate”, just like conservative Anabaptists expect lots of people to do.

Practically, it happens so rarely with someone who has any intention to return that I can probably count the cases on one hand.

[R7ehr]

The NT doesn't say anything about a believer who decides to leave Christianity and marry an unbeliever. It certainly teaches that we shouldn't do that (in my opinion).

Practically speaking, Anabaptists have always held to closed marriage practices. If there aren't any consequences for violating that, then it will happen.

Wife: The New Testament doesn’t say anything about it. It says a lot about marriage and divorce though. The only situation where I can think of separation being encouraged/required would be Herod/Herodias and the guy who was with his father’s wife.

It’s never good to marry an unbeliever, but I think the general consensus among the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world would probably be somewhere along the saying that, “You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.” I also personally think that’s the New Testament principle.

You might be right about old orders, but I would highly doubt they would tell them to get divorced, unless someone had already been previously married. There might be some sort of time of proving otherwise, though. Then again, this is from someone who’s never been to Pennsylvania or Ohio, so maybe somebody else can tell me if old order Amish/Mennonites would recommend divorce in that situation.

I never said divorce was required or expected or even allowed.

I said they would be expected to “separate”, just like conservative Anabaptists expect lots of people to do.

Practically, it happens so rarely with someone who has any intention to return that I can probably count the cases on one hand.

That raises more questions. What if the unbelieving husband/wife be pleased to dwell with the believing wife/husband? How can you instruct the believing spouse to separate?
1 Corinthians 7:12-16

[Soloist]

The NT doesn't say anything about a believer who decides to leave Christianity and marry an unbeliever. It certainly teaches that we shouldn't do that (in my opinion).

Practically speaking, Anabaptists have always held to closed marriage practices. If there aren't any consequences for violating that, then it will happen.

Wife: The New Testament doesn’t say anything about it. It says a lot about marriage and divorce though. The only situation where I can think of separation being encouraged/required would be Herod/Herodias and the guy who was with his father’s wife.

It’s never good to marry an unbeliever, but I think the general consensus among the rest of the conservative Anabaptist world would probably be somewhere along the saying that, “You made your bed and now you have to sleep in it.” I also personally think that’s the New Testament principle.

You might be right about old orders, but I would highly doubt they would tell them to get divorced, unless someone had already been previously married. There might be some sort of time of proving otherwise, though. Then again, this is from someone who’s never been to Pennsylvania or Ohio, so maybe somebody else can tell me if old order Amish/Mennonites would recommend divorce in that situation.

I never said divorce was required or expected or even allowed.

I said they would be expected to “separate”, just like conservative Anabaptists expect lots of people to do.

Practically, it happens so rarely with someone who has any intention to return that I can probably count the cases on one hand.

Wife: well, unless it was never a valid marriage to start with, that sounds an awful lot like a divorce or possibly like shunning an unbeliever.

1Co 5:12  For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1Co 7:3  Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4  The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1Co 7:10  And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11  But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1Co 7:12  But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15  But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1Co 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

[JohnH]

Wife: well, unless it was never a valid marriage to start with, that sounds an awful lot like a divorce or possibly like shunning an unbeliever.

Conservative Anabaptists expect people to do this all the time. The Holdemans simply have a somewhat different arrangement of rules.

In every case I’m aware of the ex member has been encouraged NOT to separate from their non member spouse but instead to pray for their salvation.

In the case of two ex members, I don’t see the problem. If they went to be back in church they simply need to both choose to be back in church. The end.