The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[Ernie]

But although Scottish and German traditional dress has gone out of fashion. There are many other cultural costumes in more traditional societies that have not. The Guatemalan huipil, for example.

There is a subset of Guatemalan people who continue to wear traditional dress. There is a subset of Swiss/Germans who continue to wear traditional dress. For some reason you think it is fine for the Guatemalan subset to keep doing what they want to do, but it is not fine for the Swiss/Germans to keep doing what they want to do. Why does whether or not something has gone out of fashion make any difference as to whether a subset can keep doing what they want to do?

[Josh]

Rather amusing to me is the the Guatemalan “traditional dress” has essentially the same origins as the alleged Swiss/German traditional peasant dress.

[Ken]

But although Scottish and German traditional dress has gone out of fashion. There are many other cultural costumes in more traditional societies that have not. The Guatemalan huipil, for example.

There is a subset of Guatemalan people who continue to wear traditional dress. There is a subset of Swiss/Germans who continue to wear traditional dress. For some reason you think it is fine for the Guatemalan subset to keep doing what they want to do, but it is not fine for the Swiss/Germans to keep doing what they want to do. Why does whether or not something has gone out of fashion make any difference as to whether a subset can keep doing what they want to do?

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters.
Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

[Ken]

Rather amusing to me is the the Guatemalan “traditional dress” has essentially the same origins as the alleged Swiss/German traditional peasant dress.

Yes, Mayan huipils that have been hand-woven on backstrap looms going back possibly 3,000 years with unique designs indicating specific clans or villages have essentially the same roots as cape dresses. https://www.phalarope.org/magazine/2021 ... ral-emblem

In fact they aren't even the same article of clothing. One is a blouse worn with a separate hand-woven wrap skirt and the other is a machine-made dress..

[RZehr]

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters.
Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I think that you seem to accept that certain Christian churches requiring certain clothing to be part of the group, is acceptable. Do I have that right?

What would your reply be to the following statements? “The Bible does speak on clothing. For anyone to follow Bible principles, their choice in clothing will be influenced or reflected, by their desire to follow these Bible principles.”

[Ken]

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters.
Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I think that you seem to accept that certain Christian churches requiring certain clothing to be part of the group, is acceptable. Do I have that right?

What would your reply be to the following statements? “The Bible does speak on clothing. For anyone to follow Bible principles, their choice in clothing will be influenced or reflected, by their desire to follow these Bible principles.”

My reply would be the following:

1. Jesus does not appear to speak on clothing anywhere in the Bible (correct me if I am wrong). It is not addressed in the Gospels so I don't consider it a central issue of Christianity in any way.

2. Dress does come up in the various epistles such as 1 Peter and 1 Timothy, both of which actually have disputed authorship. I look to what they are actually saying and it is modesty in the humble (not showy) sense and women covering their hair which all but the most conservative sects to not actually follow literally. And neither do they follow the dictate that men leave their heads uncovered. I see hats everywhere.

3. Nowhere in the Bible to I see rigid conformity of dress taught as any sort of virtue. Not in the Old Testament or New Testament.

4. I ignore Old Testament Hebrew law on dress since everyone else does too, or arbitrarily picks and chooses which to follow. For example, I don't think any group follows the dictate on blend fabrics.

In summary, for both men and women, what is on the INSIDE is far more important than what is on the OUTSIDE. And in my personal experience, the focus on outward appearance and dress, especially for women, distracts from that. Whether it is churches mandating specific forms of plain dress, or fashionistas promoting specific fashions.

[Sudsy]

When thinking about our outward appearance I keep coming back to how the scripture texts are understood. To me, they speak of what kind of attention we are drawing to ourselves and it's affect on others. To me, it gives some examples of women's appearance that is mainly for drawing attention to themselves, their bodies, by their adornments. And the text goes on to say that the right way to draw the attention God wants is by good deeds (my paraphrasing). And so what do we think is the purpose for being recognized primarily for your good deeds over the way one can decorate their body ?

What I have noticed is that people who are primarily noted for their good deeds makes it hard for unbelievers to criticize, although not entirely impossible. And good deeds often will open the door to talking about what matters most and that is one's eternal destination.

As far as what one adorns their bodies with, how does that speak to people ? On the one hand, wearing excess jewelry, makeup, fancy hairdos, I believe can be a distraction to drawing people to seek the Saviour. On the other hand, imo, wearing things that are far removed from the cultural norms also can be a distraction to people from seeking the Saviour. One of the scoffs I hear toward the cape dress wearing is when modern running shoes are worn along with the cape dress. I have even seen young girls with cape dresses wearing those running shoes that light up when you walk. So this mix of tradition and modern attire is made sport of.

But the main question that comes to my mind is does a cape dress attract seekers to ask questions that lead to conversation about a person's soul ? Or is it more of an immediate turn off to possible seekers who are unsaved ? Same question to those Christians that adorn themselves in the latest and often immodest ways of dressing. We are either dressing and doing things that support the furtherance of the Gospel or we are turning people away.

Tell me about a church that is seeing outsiders (the unsaved not family members) come to a new life in Christ (be born again) and these new converts have changed to wearing cape dresses and I will have to re-consider how I view this. How many unbelievers have come to your church, become Christ followers, and now have changed to cape dress wearing ?

[RZehr]

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters.
Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I think that you seem to accept that certain Christian churches requiring certain clothing to be part of the group, is acceptable. Do I have that right?

What would your reply be to the following statements? “The Bible does speak on clothing. For anyone to follow Bible principles, their choice in clothing will be influenced or reflected, by their desire to follow these Bible principles.”

My reply would be the following:

1. Jesus does not appear to speak on clothing anywhere in the Bible (correct me if I am wrong). It is not addressed in the Gospels so I don't consider it a central issue of Christianity in any way.

2. Dress does come up in the various epistles such as 1 Peter and 1 Timothy, both of which actually have disputed authorship. I look to what they are actually saying and it is modesty in the humble (not showy) sense and women covering their hair which all but the most conservative sects to not actually follow literally. And neither do they follow the dictate that men leave their heads uncovered. I see hats everywhere.

3. Nowhere in the Bible to I see rigid conformity of dress taught as any sort of virtue. Not in the Old Testament or New Testament.

4. I ignore Old Testament Hebrew law on dress since everyone else does too, or arbitrarily picks and chooses which to follow. For example, I don't think any group follows the dictate on blend fabrics.

In summary, for both men and women, what is on the INSIDE is far more important than what is on the OUTSIDE. And in my personal experience, the focus on outward appearance and dress, especially for women, distracts from that. Whether it is churches mandating specific forms of plain dress, or fashionistas promoting specific fashions.

Thanks. I don't see anything about my first question. Did you answer it in here somewhere that I don't see?

[Josh]

My church doesn’t have a written dress code but in practice everyone wears a fairly uniform style of clothing, essentially what was commonplace in the 1930s, but minus the hats and ties. Most women who join our church eventually learn stress making and enjoy sewing dresses and picking out fabric prints.

[Ken]

But the main question that comes to my mind is does a cape dress attract seekers to ask questions that lead to conversation about a person's soul ? Or is it more of an immediate turn off to possible seekers who are unsaved ? Same question to those Christians that adorn themselves in the latest and often immodest ways of dressing. We are either dressing and doing things that support the furtherance of the Gospel or we are turning people away.

Evangelism is part of it but not the only part. The other part is what messages are we sending to our own young women. Something I'm aware of as the father of three daughters.

As I get older I reflect back on my life experiences and spend time sharing experiences and stories and memories with my cousins and relatives when we gather. Most recently we had a lot of family over to our house on New Years and I had time to share childhood reminiscences of our grandfather with some of my female cousins who are my age. What strikes me to this day is how different our shared memories are.

My childhood memories of my grandfather are of him teaching me to drive a tractor at age 10. Of him teaching me how to sharpen the pocket knife he gave me until it was so sharp I could shave with it. Of learning how to dip for smelt on the Sandy River and learning how to brine and smoke smelt and store it in wooden barrels. And I remember him teaching me beekeeping.

By contrast, my female cousin's memories of their grandfather are vastly different. Mostly all they remember is stern/angry old man with his leather King James Bible in hand, lecturing and hectoring them about their dress and hair. At every family event that was what they got. Judgement and disapproval of their outward appearance and lectures citing various scriptures. He barely knew their names and certainly knew nothing of what was inside, their hopes, dreams, interests, who they were. It was nothing but judgment and disapproval based entirely on outward appearance. Which was not immodest in any way. They were just not dressed in traditional Menno dresses with long hair tucked in buns under coverings like he wanted. Because it was the 1970s and they all attended mainstream Mennonite churches where that was no longer really done.

I don't want my own daughters growing up with the message that their value as people and as Christians is dependent on something so trivial as dress. Not from the secular world of fashion, and not from old men and women in their churches.