Memes, Prophets, and Trolls

[mike]

When I see cynicism, I need to remind myself there is usually a reason. There is often a story behind the bitterness. It doesn't make malice and cynicism the right course to take, but it makes it more understandable.

[Ken]

As a whole I haven't felt cynicism from this group. Pointed challenges yes. But my dialogue with them has always been respectful even though I am in different places than many of them on various things.

I don't know the people in the group. There's a lot of inside baseball I cannnot follow with plain Mennonites, I have never been plain.

I agree that cynical memes are bad. I suspect that we can best consider memes one at a time. I suspect we can best talk with meme-makers one at a time. I think it would be a mistake to tar all memes and meme-makers with the worst memes. That would be like saying speaking is bad because some people say bad things, or like saying writing is bad because some people write bad things.

How are memes different from, say ...



Or ..



I suppose a meme would show a picture of some religious person blatantly violating these two things while claiming to be walking the walk? Would that be a bad thing?

So, for example the first message overlaid on top of children detained in cages at the border?
Or the second example overlaid on top of a photo of Trump and his family in their gilded $100 million penthouse?

You can weaponize bible verses or religious one-liners to say anything you want. We could do that all day here, create competing left and right bible memes. Its fun but I'm not sure particularly useful.

[Bootstrap]

How are memes different from, say ...



Or ..



I suppose a meme would show a picture of some religious person blatantly violating these two things while claiming to be walking the walk? Would that be a bad thing?

So, for example the first message overlaid on top of children detained in cages at the border?
Or the second example overlaid on top of a photo of Trump and his family in their gilded $100 million penthouse?

You can weaponize bible verses or religious one-liners to say anything you want. We could do that all day here, create competing left and right bible memes. Its fun but I'm not sure particularly useful.

I agree that those examples would be weaponizing and unhelpful. Are there other images that could be used that would be more constructive?

I suspect a good meme is like a good sermon. It should provoke people to do what is right and reflect on inconsistencies in the way they walk without condemning people or starting fights and division. I also suspect that we need sermons that challenge us and feel uncomfortable sometimes. Can memes do that in the same way as a good sermon? If so, what kind of memes?

[Pelerin]

As a whole I haven't felt cynicism from this group. Pointed challenges yes. But my dialogue with them has always been respectful even though I am in different places than many of them on various things.

I don't know the people in the group. There's a lot of inside baseball I cannnot follow with plain Mennonites, I have never been plain.

I agree that cynical memes are bad. I suspect that we can best consider memes one at a time. I suspect we can best talk with meme-makers one at a time. I think it would be a mistake to tar all memes and meme-makers with the worst memes. That would be like saying speaking is bad because some people say bad things, or like saying writing is bad because some people write bad things.

How are memes different from, say ...



Or ..



I suppose a meme would show a picture of some religious person blatantly violating these two things while claiming to be walking the walk? Would that be a bad thing?

For one, the billboards are paid for. That says that their funders value the message. It also says that they put some thought into communicating it in a way they thought would get across to people.

The level of effort you put into an idea communicates something of its value to you—I think quite a number of things, say only a few of them, write down even fewer, and share just a handful of those. I’ve never taken out a billboard.

I’m a little skeptical of billboard evangelism myself, but a couple years ago when Harold Camping took out a bunch of billboards announcing the end of the world, I noticed and I visited his website. I talked (joked) about his prediction with my friends, who had also noticed the billboards. I remembered his name nine years later without having to look it up. A lot of other people noticed too; it was one of the major side-news stories of the year. On the other hand, if I come across a meme I don’t get at first glance, I usually just keep scrolling.

[Bootstrap]

For one, the billboards are paid for. That says that their funders value the message. It also says that they put some thought into communicating it in a way they thought would get across to people.

The level of effort you put into an idea communicates something of its value to you—I think quite a number of things, say only a few of them, write down even fewer, and share just a handful of those. I’ve never taken out a billboard.

I agree - the level of effort is important. If a community takes time to create a meme together, thinking it through, prayerfully discerning what is right and good, that's a kind of effort I would like to see. To me, that's a WHOLE lot more effort and thought than mindlessly forwarding whatever meme you see in your Facebook feed - with no idea who created it and why.

Maybe that's a good guideline for memes. Don't forward a meme if you don't know where it came from. Don't forward a meme without carefully thinking about what it means - not only to you, but to the people who will read it. For now, I'm thinking one really good way to engage with the DKCM people is to take one meme at a time, start a thread using the meme in the OP, and have a discussion about it. Maybe we can keep doing some of that here. If I were the DKCM people, I would probably have this kind of discussion internally before a meme becomes public, and I might consider looking for some group process for deciding what memes are appropriate.

[jahertz]

For one, the billboards are paid for. That says that their funders value the message. It also says that they put some thought into communicating it in a way they thought would get across to people.

The level of effort you put into an idea communicates something of its value to you—I think quite a number of things, say only a few of them, write down even fewer, and share just a handful of those. I’ve never taken out a billboard.

I agree - the level of effort is important. If a community takes time to create a meme together, thinking it through, prayerfully discerning what is right and good, that's a kind of effort I would like to see. To me, that's a WHOLE lot more effort and thought than mindlessly forwarding whatever meme you see in your Facebook feed - with no idea who created it and why.

Maybe that's a good guideline for memes. Don't forward a meme if you don't know where it came from. Don't forward a meme without carefully thinking about what it means - not only to you, but to the people who will read it. For now, I'm thinking one really good way to engage with the DKCM people is to take one meme at a time, start a thread using the meme in the OP, and have a discussion about it. Maybe we can keep doing some of that here. If I were the DKCM people, I would probably have this kind of discussion internally before a meme becomes public, and I might consider looking for some group process for deciding what memes are appropriate.

These concerns are the reason the original DKCM group recently went private. We found we had two aims which could not both be well served within one group:
1. create quality public-facing memes promoting Kingdom Christian perspectives on truth and
2. provide a platform for safe discussion of controversial issues with an emphasis on visual communication through memes.

Original DKCM (now DKC Meme Farm) is now private in order to dedicate itself effectively to the second aim, while the public DKCM page (not the imposter group) is dedicated to publishing the best and truest of the memes created within the DKCM discussion group. This split is new and we are still working on the criteria by which memes are vetted for the public page, but a group approval process is our intention.

DKC Meme Farm, the private group, includes a wide diversity of members who are free to express a wide variety of views, including those that diverge from the administrators'. If someone hangs out there long and still comes away with the conclusion that everything posted there represents the views of those who run the group, I'm not sure what to tell such them, except that they probably don't have the constitution for healthy dissent and thus remaining a member of DKC Meme farm will probably be detrimental to their mental health.

[Bootstrap]

These concerns are the reason the original DKCM group recently went private. We found we had two aims which could not both be well served within one group:
1. create quality public-facing memes promoting Kingdom Christian perspectives on truth and
2. provide a platform for safe discussion of controversial issues with an emphasis on visual communication through memes.

Original DKCM (now DKC Meme Farm) is now private in order to dedicate itself effectively to the second aim, while the public DKCM page (not the imposter group) is dedicated to publishing the best and truest of the memes created within the DKCM discussion group. This split is new and we are still working on the criteria by which memes are vetted for the public page, but a group approval process is our intention.

DKC Meme Farm, the private group, includes a wide diversity of members who are free to express a wide variety of views, including those that diverge from the administrators'. If someone hangs out there long and still comes away with the conclusion that everything posted there represents the views of those who run the group, I'm not sure what to tell such them, except that they probably don't have the constitution for healthy dissent and thus remaining a member of DKC Meme farm will probably be detrimental to their mental health.

Sounds good! Personally, I would love to see you surface memes on MN so we can discuss them here. I think we have had some good discussions in that kind of thread recently.

[jahertz]

These concerns are the reason the original DKCM group recently went private. We found we had two aims which could not both be well served within one group:
1. create quality public-facing memes promoting Kingdom Christian perspectives on truth and
2. provide a platform for safe discussion of controversial issues with an emphasis on visual communication through memes.

Original DKCM (now DKC Meme Farm) is now private in order to dedicate itself effectively to the second aim, while the public DKCM page (not the imposter group) is dedicated to publishing the best and truest of the memes created within the DKCM discussion group. This split is new and we are still working on the criteria by which memes are vetted for the public page, but a group approval process is our intention.

DKC Meme Farm, the private group, includes a wide diversity of members who are free to express a wide variety of views, including those that diverge from the administrators'. If someone hangs out there long and still comes away with the conclusion that everything posted there represents the views of those who run the group, I'm not sure what to tell such them, except that they probably don't have the constitution for healthy dissent and thus remaining a member of DKC Meme farm will probably be detrimental to their mental health.

Sounds good! Personally, I would love to see you surface memes on MN so we can discuss them here. I think we have had some good discussions in that kind of thread recently.

Seeing as there are several regulars here who are also Meme Farm members, perhaps they will take you up on that.