The NEW Non-conformity Poll

[JimFoxvog]

I think ties are jewelry for men - ornamental extras with no practical value - status symbols of corporate and political culture.

The only value they served for me was as an expensive bib.

I understand that was their original purpose: bib, napkin, and handkerchief. Kept them all handy. Nowadays, someone might frown if you blew your nose on your tie.

[ohio jones]

I suspect the original 17th-century objections had more to do with the military origins of the cravat (much like the mustache) than its ornamental nature. Now that both the military connection and the original utility have disappeared, they are merely decorative and uncomfortable.

[MaxPC]

I think ties are jewelry for men - ornamental extras with no practical value - status symbols of corporate and political culture.

The only value they served for me was as an expensive bib.

I understand that was their original purpose: bib, napkin, and handkerchief. Kept them all handy. Nowadays, someone might frown if you blew your nose on your tie.

Who says I haven't? Needs must!

[Dan Z]

A bit more about the poll, and its perspectives: I tried to write the poll fro the following perspectives:

• 1) This is written from the traditional, ultra-conservative, old order Anabaptist perspective more or less (e.g. Amish, OO Mennonites, Old German Brethren, Wistler, Nationwide, Eastern PA, Hutterite, etc.). It is the most prescriptive approach, and while it acknowledges a broadly scriptural basis for church standards/ordnung, the reasoning behind the standards tends to be more church-centered than theology-centered.
  
  2) This is written from the moderately conservative point of view (e.g. Beachy, New Conference GB, Mid-Atlantic, Southeastern, Mid-western fellowships, BMA), with a bit more room for personal and local body discernment, but still quite traditional/prescribed in application. It does reflect the fact that Scripture, and particularly the New Testament, plays a larger role in the justification and acceptance of church standards - i.e. tradition and church authority is not quite as central a rationale to these groups as it is in #1. It also tends to be less insular, and more mission/outreach oriented in approach.
  
  3) This is written from the perspective of what I would call the Kingdom movements within Anabaptism (e.g. Followers of the Way, Charity/Remnant Churches, Shipppensburg fellowship & related churches, neo-Hutterites like the Bruderhof & Elmendorf Colony & related Churches, Anabaptist Identity folks, radical neo-Anabaptists, etc.). It teaches a radical non-conformity, grounded most directly on literal obedience the teachings and example of Christ as the fullest revelation of God's will for us. It tends to be quite seeker/mission-centric in outreach, and is informed by traditional Anabaptism and the early church fathers. It's strong focus on brotherly sharing and accountability give it a more prescribed-feeling, but standards are more fluid and driven by individual conviction.
  
  4) This is written from the perspective of what I would call Evangelical Anabaptism (e.g. CMC, Evana, Lancaster Conference, Mennonite Brethren, etc.). It would still acknowledge a call to non-conformity as part of its historical/theological DNA, but for the most part it would leave lifestyle standards to personal conviction. This perspective would emphasize holiness of life, but would not emphasize separation from dominant society nearly as much.
  
  5) This reflects the influence of Reformed theology within Evangelical Anabaptism. It would be wary of any works based approach to the Christian life, and would reject overt non-conformity as such. It would also be a perspective held by Anabaptists & former Anabaptists who have emerged from what they would see as an unbalanced application of non-conformity in their past among plain Anabaptism.

Missing in my list is the perspective of the most liberal Anabaptists - in part because their are not many present on this board. In some ways, Progressive Anabaptism (#6) would theologically reflect #3's Christocentrism (especially among the more radical neo-Anabaptist movements with teachers like Shane Claiborne, Bruxey Cavey, Greg Boyd, Brian McLaren, Jim Wallace, etc.). However, it would most likely see non-conformity in terms of radically expressing Christ's rule of love through peace, reconciliation and social justice, and it would be quick to address collective wrongs (economic exploitation, racial injustices, coercive violence, environmental degradation, etc.), and more slow to judge/address individual lifestyle issues (modesty, divorce, sexual orientation, etc.).

Hope that helps explain the poll. I'll add that this list of approaches to non-conformity is more of a continuum than distinct divisions. Feedback?

[cmbl]

In ultra- and intermediate-conservative circles, "separation" and "non-conformity" are often discussed together.
Separation was originally separation from the Catholic church and Protestant churches. ("We will have no fellowship with them (the wicked), neither run with them in the confusion of their abominations. By this is meant all Popish and rePopish works and church services..."

Today close(d) communion is still practiced, but I would venture to say separation has come to mean more of separation from "ungodly" or "secular" society.

[ken_sylvania]

As a side note, when you think about it, I have witnessed some things that are done to appear "plain" but become impractical. Like men wearing long-sleeved shirts all summer long. Or the ladies paying $30+ to have a covering made when a hanging veil would suffice. We put a lot of time and money into filling a culture instead of following Christ.

I'm curious why you say wearing long-sleeved shirts became impractical.

[JimFoxvog]

I'm curious why you say wearing long-sleeved shirts became impractical.

It becomes impractical every summer. Practical non-conformity would be being shirtless when most are wearing shirts.

[Dan Z]

I'm curious why you say wearing long-sleeved shirts became impractical.

It becomes impractical every summer. Practical non-conformity would be being shirtless when most are wearing shirts.

You could justify it biblically by appealing to Genesis and the original Garden Church standards.

[steve-in-kville]

As a side note, when you think about it, I have witnessed some things that are done to appear "plain" but become impractical. Like men wearing long-sleeved shirts all summer long. Or the ladies paying $30+ to have a covering made when a hanging veil would suffice. We put a lot of time and money into filling a culture instead of following Christ.

I'm curious why you say wearing long-sleeved shirts became impractical.

Why wear a long sleeved shirt when you roll the sleeves up in the summer?

I worked with many an EPMC folk for many years. Don't school me on impractical.

[EJM]

Yes I remember that quote Ohio Jones. It is interesting that one of our main doctrines in the Mennonite context is defining what we are NOT (non-conformity).

But you see, non-conformity comes from Romans 12:2 "be not conformed". We seem to stress that part of the verse while more or less neglecting the "be transformed." It would seem to me that the transformation part is to be taken spiritually while we take the not conformed part more materially.

Interesting, Only on page 2 of the discussion is the main point of non conformity finally mentioned.
And it seems that is the way with most of our people.
True non conformity is a complete transformation of the mind, a total renewal of the mind.
Which we cannot do of or within ourselves.
Only Jesus Christ can. II Cor 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
However we as humans want to do something tangible, so we often degenerate into clothes and do's and don'ts and frequently neglect the real meaning of non conformity
It seems the clothing standard of many Anabaptist churches may have been a reaction to the ridiculous fashions of the 14th - 17th century and have developed into a counter culture more than a transformation by the renewing of the mind.
Non conformity to the immodest, fashion oriented world is a good thing, however lets not forget the real non conformity,
and ask Jesus to renew our mind,thereby proving what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God.

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