CAM Molestation Issue

[appleman2006]

Ernie, Perhaps this is being hushed by the Menno community because so many Menno jobs are at stake seeing as CAM is the employer of how many Mennos (I think I read 900 somewhere)? Perhaps the true test of American Mennonite Christianity is when their job is at stake?

Or simply money in general. Take the money away from the Mennonites and they will dissolve in five years.

I disagree with both of you here. First, it isn't being "hushed by the Menno community". And most of those jobs are very low wage jobs and these employees could find better paying jobs in a heart beat right now. We have right now the lowest unemployment in years. By and large, those employees are not working for CAM for the money. They are working for CAM because they believe in what they are doing. They are willing to accept lower wages from CAM in order for CAM to use more money for the missions.

Qualified people aren't exactly clamoring to go work for CAM, which may in part be why they made the terrible decision to send JMast back down there.

Many of these are not coveted jobs, but sacrificial. And if these employees lose confidence in CAM, the wage is not high enough to retain them. According to Forbes, the top earner at CAM is about $100,000. Think about that for a minute. The top earner of a 900 employee international "company", hundreds of millions of dollars, and the "CEO" makes only $100,000!?!? https://www.forbes.com/companies/christ ... 2548145076 They aren't doing it for the money.

I so agree with this. One of CAM's faults IMO is that they do not pay their staff enough, at least their long term management staff. I am guessing there are very few people working for CAM that could not find a better paying job somewhere else tomorrow if they needed to.

[Ernie]

I do not think Ernie or Mike or myself for that matter were reluctant to speak to the issue because it "felt wrong" to us. Rather I think all three of us have had enough experience in life to know that without us being in the inside so to speak all our suggestions really were little more than armchair quarterbacking.
I am guessing that they like me spent a lot more time praying that the right things would be done rather than simply trying to spend a lot of time predetermining what that was. And while I still have lots of concerns, that is what I am continuing to do.
I think it is fair to say that I have served on more boards than the majority of you here. Some of them were of relatively large organisations as well. And I have sat through my share of meetings that involved making some pretty tough decisions. I am simply sharing this to say that there are varying reasons why some of us respond the way we do and it does not have anything to do with circling the wagons so to speak.
Having said all of that I think all three of us have stated some things that we felt were totally necessary for CAM to do and do quickly. I think all three of us were very supportive of the white paper that Dan put out.
And I am guessing that all three of us are hoping that this will help give conservative Anabaptists a better perspective on how to handle situations of this nature in the future. What is somewhat ironic in this is that I think all three of us are quite open about talking about the weak points in our cultures. None of us think we have it all figured out. But nor do we want to throw away the good.

Yes, you are speaking for me correctly.

[Bootstrap]

I do not think Ernie or Mike or myself for that matter were reluctant to speak to the issue because it "felt wrong" to us. Rather I think all three of us have had enough experience in life to know that without us being in the inside so to speak all our suggestions really were little more than armchair quarterbacking.
I am guessing that they like me spent a lot more time praying that the right things would be done rather than simply trying to spend a lot of time predetermining what that was. And while I still have lots of concerns, that is what I am continuing to do.

From what I have seen of the three of you here, I really value your wisdom. And bathing all of this in prayer is essential.

Having said all of that I think all three of us have stated some things that we felt were totally necessary for CAM to do and do quickly. I think all three of us were very supportive of the white paper that Dan put out.
And I am guessing that all three of us are hoping that this will help give conservative Anabaptists a better perspective on how to handle situations of this nature in the future. What is somewhat ironic in this is that I think all three of us are quite open about talking about the weak points in our cultures. None of us think we have it all figured out. But nor do we want to throw away the good.

And there's a lot of good to preserve. Thanks for all of your service and wrestling and prayer.

[RZehr]

This society rightly and so far, believes child rape to be a horrible action. But it doesn't believe that homosexuality is horrible. In fact it is coupled with pride. And as if that is not enough, we have decided to have a whole month set aside to celebrate with pride this abomination. And so the homosexual aspect of this crime is completely ignored amongst the fevered outcry of moral indignation.
Where are the people who are brave enough to both stand in the face of society and condemn child rape and homosexuality, instead of only signaling their virtue by condemning child rape (as if there is anyone that would disagree on that), and then shyly whispering their apologetic discomfort with homosexual behavior?

[Wade]

Another thing that is interesting is how the volume of blame in the media is on the people who allowed it vs. Jeriah Mast.

Hold people accountable and this won't happen so much.

I think it is in part or mostly by the way Mennonites believe and practice community - not the media and public. There can be such a strong sense of the togetherness and community of Mennonites that is put forward to us on the outside when things are positive, that people then have a real difficult time separating one person from the church when negative happens.

The only way to clear this up is to hold people accountable - that is one reason I can never feel comfortable with people that want to protect Jeriah Mast from the consequences of accountability. When Mennonites support protecting Jeriah Mast like Dan Z promotes in his letter people look on and blame all CA's for Jeriah Mast's conduct because of avoiding accountability and consequences or owning up to ones own actions.

Rather if we love Jeriah Mast like Christ does us we should be willing to take his place or go to prison with him(wherever) - but we'd rather not take his place like Christ took ours so rather we hope he can stay in the States and have his earthly life protected and us to...

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

[Dan Z]

I just wanted to interject that, for the most part, the discussions between posters around this Haiti Missions tragedy have been generally thoughtful and respectful - even where we disagree there has been more light than heat. Thanks all - my hope is that sorting this all out together here on MN has been helpful - it has been for me.

[Ken]

This society rightly and so far, believes child rape to be a horrible action. But it doesn't believe that homosexuality is horrible. In fact it is coupled with pride. And as if that is not enough, we have decided to have a whole month set aside to celebrate with pride this abomination. And so the homosexual aspect of this crime is completely ignored amongst the fevered outcry of moral indignation.
Where are the people who are brave enough to both stand in the face of society and condemn child rape and homosexuality, instead of only signaling their virtue by condemning child rape (as if there is anyone that would disagree on that), and then shyly whispering their apologetic discomfort with homosexual behavior?

Are you saying that JH's crimes and sin would somehow be even slightly less if it had been dozens of little girls that he raped and abused? Raping little boys is no more a homosexual behavior than raping little girls is a hetersexual behavior. It is pedophilia. And studies on this topic have found that gay men are no more likley to be pedophiles and child abusers than straight men. So there is really no link between the two. In fact when this topic is studied scientifically, the opposite conclusion is reached. On average, straight men tend to be more attracted to younger girls than gay men are attracted to younger boys. Which makes some sense when you think about how society sexualizes young girls much more than it does young boys.

[RZehr]

Go back and read what I actually said. Gay men may not be anymore likely to be pedophiles than straight men. I didn’t insinuate that. I’m not talking about risk. Yes is is pedophilia.
But I do consider a male raping a male to be a homosexual action, yes.
Just as I consider a male raping a girl to be a heterosexual action.
Both are wrong. Rape is wrong. Child abuse is wrong. Homosexual behavior is wrong.

[Ernie]

But I do consider a male raping a male to be a homosexual action, yes.
Homosexual behavior is wrong.

The Haitians believe this also. They believe JM to be homosexual.
Some reporting on the situation have tried to explain that Haitians don't really have different terms to describe this sort of behavior as if they are behind the times. Well they are. 50 years ago, most Americans didn't have other terms either.

[Ken]

Go back and read what I actually said. Gay men may not be anymore likely to be pedophiles than straight men. I didn’t insinuate that. I’m not talking about risk. Yes is is pedophilia.
But I do consider a male raping a male to be a homosexual action, yes.
Just as I consider a male raping a girl to be a heterosexual action.
Both are wrong. Rape is wrong. Child abuse is wrong. Homosexual behavior is wrong.

We are perhaps talking about semantics. But the people who study this sort of thing would say that pedophilia is a separate sexual orientation that is neither gay nor straight. It is attraction for prepubescent children. And the great majority of pedophiles who abuse boys do not in fact identify as gay, and are not attracted to men. they generally identify as straight with a predilection for children. Which appears to be the case with JM as well.