Three Questions For You

[ohio jones]

Somewhat slightly related is the custom in some Mennonite circles that a woman shouldn't appear in public once she is beyond so much pregnant. I find that attitude particularly bizarre.

While the custom is increasingly rare, it gave birth to the Amish-Mennonite practice of having communion twice a year instead of just once. The window between recovering from one pregnancy and exhibiting visible evidence of the next was short enough, and the women productive enough, that a woman of childbearing age might go years between communion services if the timing wasn't just right.

Interesting. Before that happened, was it typically held on Easter or Christmas?

I would guess spring, close to Easter/Passover, with fall communion being the one that was added, but can't recall that being mentioned.

[JimFoxvog]

1) I understand from Neto and his experience with the Banawa people, that what covering is appropriate is culturally determined. In your fellowship, if they have rules, that is the culture to conform to. The US culture is changing to more equality. I expect more and more in situations where men can be top-free, so can women. Nothing to worry about. It would sure help women not feel so uncomfortable in breastfeeding.

2) Wine is more authentic as it is what was and is used in the Passover seder, but we can respect those who want to not be a cause of stumbling for those who might abuse it. There were alcoholics in Jesus' day also, but that didn't stop him from making lots of wine.

3) I think that (where legal) cannabis can be considered similar to alcohol. Drunkenness is wrong and to be avoided. Similarly, taking cannabis to the point of intoxication should be seen in the same moral light. Taking it medicinally can be supported. It is often a safer and more effective pain medicine than opioids.

[GoodGirl]

1) I understand from Neto and his experience with the Banawa people, that what covering is appropriate is culturally determined. In your fellowship, if they have rules, that is the culture to conform to. The US culture is changing to more equality. I expect more and more in situations where men can be top-free, so can women. Nothing to worry about. It would sure help women not feel so uncomfortable in breastfeeding.

2) Wine is more authentic as it is what was and is used in the Passover seder, but we can respect those who want to not be a cause of stumbling for those who might abuse it. There were alcoholics in Jesus' day also, but that didn't stop him from making lots of wine.

3) I think that (where legal) cannabis can be considered similar to alcohol. Drunkenness is wrong and to be avoided. Similarly, taking cannabis to the point of intoxication should be seen in the same moral light. Taking it medicinally can be supported. It is often a safer and more effective pain medicine than opioids.

Thanks. Very reasonable answers, but it does make me a bit nervous to think about living with topless ladies around.

But then again, if most ‘worldly’ women did it, maybe it’s become so normalized, it’d be just like seeing elbows. I don’t know.

I think you’d almost have to grow up that way for it to not be awkward, but I suppose our society could very well get there.

Neto’s experience is really interesting.

[Neto]

1) I understand from Neto and his experience with the Banawa people, that what covering is appropriate is culturally determined. In your fellowship, if they have rules, that is the culture to conform to. The US culture is changing to more equality. I expect more and more in situations where men can be top-free, so can women. Nothing to worry about. It would sure help women not feel so uncomfortable in breastfeeding.

I do want to make sure that I am not misunderstood here. I am not in favor of protest movements like "free the nipple". As a result of humanity's fall into sin and rebellion against God, all cultures are also fallen. Perhaps a case can be made for "Some being more fallen than others", but generally speaking, I would say that each culture is fallen in somewhat different areas, perhaps equally on the total impact. If I could take all of the good in the traditional Banawa culture, and infuse it into the culture in our country, 'American' culture would be improved - in general, it would more on track morally, more equal, more sharing and caring.

As the Gospel took hold in the Banawa culture, new ideas confronted some old ideas. I have mentioned this before, but one example that fits in the topic here is that one of the women came to my wife and told her that her husband was encouraging her to dress more modestly. We learned valuable lessons from the Banawa, and they from us.

But as to nudity, one of the points I wanted to make is that attitude is a large factor in how exposure of certain areas of the body 'comes across'. However, even this doesn't make it right to go against one of the first teachings God gave to fallen humanity - the need to cover our nakedness. I will also say that I seriously doubt if any Western woman who wants to go around even partially naked will exhibit the 'naked character' that was demonstrated by that Suruwaha woman, there on the road on our mission center. Her culture stipulated how she should walk, and she was following it. The women here who want to "uncover" do not have that motivation, or that culture. No Western culture would accept the parts of that culture that formulated that woman's composure. There are also some very twisted elements of that culture. How do you compare and judge the degree of sinfulness in one culture as opposed to another? I do not think it is possible. Only God knows if the short-comings we accept in our own culture are worse or less than that of another culture. The Holy Spirit must be welcome in each culture, to expose the areas that must be changed, in culturally understandable ways.

[Neto]

1) I understand from Neto and his experience with the Banawa people, that what covering is appropriate is culturally determined. In your fellowship, if they have rules, that is the culture to conform to. The US culture is changing to more equality. I expect more and more in situations where men can be top-free, so can women. Nothing to worry about. It would sure help women not feel so uncomfortable in breastfeeding.

2) Wine is more authentic as it is what was and is used in the Passover seder, but we can respect those who want to not be a cause of stumbling for those who might abuse it. There were alcoholics in Jesus' day also, but that didn't stop him from making lots of wine.

3) I think that (where legal) cannabis can be considered similar to alcohol. Drunkenness is wrong and to be avoided. Similarly, taking cannabis to the point of intoxication should be seen in the same moral light. Taking it medicinally can be supported. It is often a safer and more effective pain medicine than opioids.

Thanks. Very reasonable answers, but it does make me a bit nervous to think about living with topless ladies around.

But then again, if most ‘worldly’ women did it, maybe it’s become so normalized, it’d be just like seeing elbows. I don’t know.

I think you’d almost have to grow up that way for it to not be awkward, but I suppose our society could very well get there.

Neto’s experience is really interesting.

I actually think that the man's preoccupation with that part of the female form goes beyond culture - that it is something in our very nature, that is, a cultural universal. Why else would the Banawa, whose women traditionally went topless, have such an extremely stringent taboo concerning men not looking at women? Each culture deals with moral concerns in different ways. Western men would not accept that part of Banawa culture. It's a package deal - One cannot pick and choose individual elements, and still retain the over-all thrust of a given culture.

[GoodGirl]

Thanks, Neto. Honestly, you should write a book. It sounds fascinating, all you’ve experienced & thought about.

I agree it probably goes deep. It would be so interesting to see what God actually made for Adam & Eve to wear.


To no one in particular…

About the wine, I’m not arguing for it, because I think Jesus knows our hearts when we drink (whatever it is), so I’m just adding this quote because I saw it. I am not familiar with the group/ministry.

“The wine poured into the cup depicts the blood that poured from His wounds as He died on the cross. When we taste the bitterness of the wine, we are reminded of the bitterness of God’s wrath that Jesus bore on the cross.”

From:
www.ligonier.org


Anyway, our church is pretty conservative, like I said.
We have capes, use juice, etc, and I don’t see it changing & I’m fine with that.
There are more shirts over dresses than there used to be, but it doesn’t bother me.

Neither my husband or myself were raised in any church setting at all, so we came to Christianity & then anabaptism on our own.
It’s like going through it all over again (in a good way) to walk our youth through their questions & think it through again.

I think part of the reason behind the questions are because we live in an area with soooo many different kinds of plain people, and so there’s so much variety. (We actually moved across the county to live by anabaptist people.)

And now, our children/youth see certain anabaptist people will, say, wear a big covering & wear a cape dress but also own a TV, and wonder why they “can” have a TV (or three), but we “can’t.”

Or just whatever, you know? Every group is different & I recently had to explain to one of our younger youth that so-n-so from X plain church isn’t going to hell because they do it differently (and in our case, differently almost always means they’re more “liberal” than our church).

It’s nice to have a place like this to hear others thoughts.

[Josh]

I’d certainly like an explanation from people who think they are “conservative” yet acquire TVs.

[GoodGirl]

It’s a “conservative” Brethren church in Adams County.

My friend there wears a cape dress & kapp, and my children went over to their home & reported they have 3 TVs.

I know an older man that goes there too, and he says it’s allowed but he still chooses not to have one.

[NedFlanders]

I think if having a TV is a can or can’t question it might be a good opportunity to share that Anabaptist aren’t about can and can’t but about what we get to do. What we get to do that honour and glorifies God.
I’m from the world too from an atheist home where we had numerous TV’s and etc. My two oldest children still remember when we had TV’s and everyone in our extended family does but if children are encouraged to focus on what honour and glorifies God its amazing how they will develop an aversion to things like TV without telling them they can’t.

[GoodGirl]

I think if having a TV is a can or can’t question it might be a good opportunity to share that Anabaptist aren’t about can and can’t but about what we get to do. What we get to do that honour and glorifies God.
I’m from the world too from an atheist home where we had numerous TV’s and etc. My two oldest children still remember when we had TV’s and everyone in our extended family does but if children are encouraged to focus on what honour and glorifies God its amazing how they will develop an aversion to things like TV without telling them they can’t.

Very good point! I used to say ‘we don’t have to, we get to.’