That will be a lot of buggies

[Valerie]

But I think there needs to be some honesty when Amish people are becoming non-Amish and are acquiring motorised, mechanised transportation and the responsibilities, risks, and challenges that entails. Personally owned, high-speed (45 MPH) transportation fundamentally changes what it means to be Amish and what Amish culture is.

It's not an issue of honesty. It's an issue of regulation. In this country we do a very poor job of accommodating and regulating all modes of transport that fall in between pedestrians and automobiles. In rural areas there probably isn't all that much to be done except learn to share the roads. There are just too many old country roads and too little population density to actually make any practical changes.

But in urban areas we can certainly do a better job of making it safer and more practical for other road users that fall in between cars and pedestrians. That's not just bikes but all the other newer battery powered devices that are coming out. In most cities the biggest obstacle is that we have devoted so much road and street space to free car storage that we don't have enough room for anyone else. Most of our roads and streets were not originally built for cars. They were built for a multi-modal mix of users. But over time cars have just taken them over. Just like I imagine that nearly every country road in Holmes County was originally built for horse and buggy and cars have just taken them over too.

But the Amish are just a tiny microcosm. Around here there are no Amish but we still have a growing fleet of e-bikes, scooters, one-wheels, and all the other battery powered devices that keep getting invented as battery technology improves. We need to figure out how to safely accommodate and regulate them.

When we go to California to visit family, i see they've done an excellent job of creating bike Lanes that are much safer than any IC in Ohio. They too have many forms of transportation besides cars occupying these Lanes.
Problem with the rural area of Holmes County is there are an abundance of diesel trucks using the roads to get to other highways. There are No freeways in Holmes County so these bikes/buggies share smaller roads with huge trucks- and impatient drivers. What I witnessed while driving around myself is how accommodating the Amish are in their buggies trying very hard to pull to the side as much as they can. I also see E-bike riders riding in the middle of car lanes where there is much local traffic. In a way that seems safer- in "son" sight. There are some buggy lanes but it's all risky. They were there before cars- and its getting so expensive to own land young Amish have turned more to other means like carpentry, woodworking, & dog breeding to provide for their families. Commuting to a work place raised a problem they didn't have in the past. Traffic can be terrible in Holmes. There's enough $ there to come up with better road options for bikers

[Josh]

Freeways?

Move to any adjacent county (Wayne, Stark, Tuscarawas, etc.) or move to a city.

Valerie, you really are an enigma. You seem to admire the Amish and consider them some kind of authority on things. But then you seem to think it’s a really great thing if they stop being Amish and adopt more “worldly” ways.

If you think it’s great when people get fast vehicles to commute to factory jobs, might I suggest moving to a city like Cleveland?

[Ken]

The main reason you see more bike lanes and such in states like California and Washington is NOT because those states have gone out and built more of them from scratch. Rather, it is because both states passed laws decades ago which require that new construction and street expansions include those elements. So over the decades as new streets are built and roads expanded they automatically have to include things like bike lanes and sidewalks. Other states like Texas have no such requirements and so you still see endless new suburbs built that are largely inaccessible to anything but cars. You can't even walk in many of them.

You do end up with sort of a piecemeal effect where bike lanes and sidewalks dead end in random places. And some nonsensical stuff. Not far from my house there is a 2-block stretch of street that runs one-way from a freeway exit up to a stop light. No bikes will EVER be on that stretch of road because no bikes are ever on the freeway, but they still have a nice bike lane with a bike symbol printed on it because I guess the code required it.

In any event, all this stuff actually takes decades to build out. And so I would think that one criteria that Amish communities might consider when they explore new areas to colonize is the existing road infrastructure in addition to things like the price and quality of farmland. Whatever infrastructure you have is likely to be what you are going to be stuck with for decades. And for a community like the Amish I would think there are dramatic differences across regions in the ability of road networks, sidewalks, etc. to accommodate their lifestyle. A community with an extensive network of lightly traveled country roads and surface streets is probably far superior than one where all traffic gets funneled onto one or two high-speed expressways even if all you want to do is 1/2 mile to get some groceries you have to drive 3 miles around on freeway interchanges. A lot of newer areas are deliberately built that way.

Honestly, communities built to accommodate an Amish lifestyle are probably better for everyone as that is how we used to build all our communities before say the 1950s.

[Josh]

In any event, all this stuff actually takes decades to build out. And so I would think that one criteria that Amish communities might consider when they explore new areas to colonize is the existing road infrastructure in addition to things like the price and quality of farmland.

Bike lanes are the last thing on Amish people's minds, and the types of Amish who are colonising brand new areas are often from sects that don't allow bikes at all. And in any case, a 45 MPH e-bike is not appropriate to be driven in a "bike lane".

Whatever infrastructure you have is likely to be what you are going to be stuck with for decades. And for a community like the Amish I would think there are dramatic differences across regions in the ability of road networks, sidewalks, etc. to accommodate their lifestyle. A community with an extensive network of lightly traveled country roads and surface streets is probably far superior than one where all traffic gets funneled onto one or two high-speed expressways even if all you want to do is 1/2 mile to get some groceries you have to drive 3 miles around on freeway interchanges. A lot of newer areas are deliberately built that way.

Yes, Amish prefer country type areas and prefer not to settle in suburbs, although some in PA are doing that because they don't have any other choice. The more liberal Amish tend to build factories in their back yard which does introduce more heavy truck traffic.

Honestly, communities built to accommodate an Amish lifestyle are probably better for everyone as that is how we used to build all our communities before say the 1950s.

Yes, they would be, but nobody is really doing that. Holmes County/Millersburg mostly gets a focus from ODOT about how to handle more heavy truck traffic, as if there isn't plenty of great infrastructure for factories a short drive away in Massillon or New Philly. There are a few exceptions to this such as the mixed use bicycle/walking/buggy trail from Fredericksburg to Holmesville, or the very wide shoulders (effectively a buggy lane) on C.R. 77.

[Ken]

Bike lanes are the last thing on Amish people's minds, and the types of Amish who are colonising brand new areas are often from sects that don't allow bikes at all. And in any case, a 45 MPH e-bike is not appropriate to be driven in a "bike lane".

Well, the Amish should care about whether their kids can do things like walk to school without getting run over by an F350 going 70 mph on a country road with zero shoulder.

And 45 mph e-bikes are a regulatory issue, not an Amish issue.

Honestly, communities built to accommodate an Amish lifestyle are probably better for everyone as that is how we used to build all our communities before say the 1950s.

Yes, they would be, but nobody is really doing that. Holmes County/Millersburg mostly gets a focus from ODOT about how to handle more heavy truck traffic, as if there isn't plenty of great infrastructure for factories a short drive away in Massillon or New Philly. There are a few exceptions to this such as the mixed use bicycle/walking/buggy trail from Fredericksburg to Holmesville, or the very wide shoulders (effectively a buggy lane) on C.R. 77.

It is being done but not in Amish areas and it is mostly more upscale stuff as walkable communities seem to command a price premium these days. Strange how that is a complete opposite from the early days of suburbanization when it was only the poor who were left in walkable communities.

And new walkable communities aren't as likely to happen much in conservative areas where conservatives have managed to convince themselves that walkable communities are a communist plot of some sort: https://www.wired.com/story/15-minute-c ... te-denier/

[Josh]

Well, the Amish should care about whether their kids can do things like walk to school without getting run over by an F350 going 70 mph on a country road with zero shoulder.

Having driven an F-350 on a country road alongside Amish children walking to school with no shoulder, I can assure you they have the situation under control. You slow down and wait until you can pass in the other lane.

If they are lollygagging in the way home, they might walk up the embankment etc to let you go.

It is being done but not in Amish areas and it is mostly more upscale stuff as walkable communities seem to command a price premium these days. Strange how that is a complete opposite from the early days of suburbanization when it was only the poor who were left in walkable communities.

And new walkable communities aren't as likely to happen much in conservative areas where conservatives have managed to convince themselves that walkable communities are a communist plot of some sort: https://www.wired.com/story/15-minute-c ... te-denier/

Amish people generally prefer to live places without zoning and busybody governments so they can build what they see fit. Those who don’t like to live around traffic often locate themselves on a gravel or poorly maintained road.

More liberal Amish like to build factories next door to their house so then they appreciate having a better road that can handle truck traffic.

Your typical wealthy urban white person sort of “walkable” community is a complete nonstarter for plain people. First of all, land would be too expensive and you need at least an acre for a horse. Secondly all kinds of zoning, permits, and HOAs would get in the way of building a new shop, barn, or secondary or third house for your elderly parents. For whatever reason they prefer to live in places with as little regulation as possible. (Right down to preferring places where they can zip around in e-bikes in an unregulated fashion.)

[Ken]

Well, the Amish should care about whether their kids can do things like walk to school without getting run over by an F350 going 70 mph on a country road with zero shoulder.

Having driven an F-350 on a country road alongside Amish children walking to school with no shoulder, I can assure you they have the situation under control. You slow down and wait until you can pass in the other lane.

If they are lollygagging in the way home, they might walk up the embankment etc to let you go.

It is being done but not in Amish areas and it is mostly more upscale stuff as walkable communities seem to command a price premium these days. Strange how that is a complete opposite from the early days of suburbanization when it was only the poor who were left in walkable communities.

And new walkable communities aren't as likely to happen much in conservative areas where conservatives have managed to convince themselves that walkable communities are a communist plot of some sort: https://www.wired.com/story/15-minute-c ... te-denier/

Amish people generally prefer to live places without zoning and busybody governments so they can build what they see fit. Those who don’t like to live around traffic often locate themselves on a gravel or poorly maintained road.

More liberal Amish like to build factories next door to their house so then they appreciate having a better road that can handle truck traffic.

Your typical wealthy urban white person sort of “walkable” community is a complete nonstarter for plain people. First of all, land would be too expensive and you need at least an acre for a horse. Secondly all kinds of zoning, permits, and HOAs would get in the way of building a new shop, barn, or secondary or third house for your elderly parents. For whatever reason they prefer to live in places with as little regulation as possible. (Right down to preferring places where they can zip around in e-bikes in an unregulated fashion.)

I'm not saying that Amish would want to live in upscale walkable "new-urbanism" type communities.

Just that the same features that make a community convenient for a community based on Amish horse and buggy use and walking also make a community more attractive for a lot of other people as well.

That is why older pre-WW2 19th and early 20th century walkable streetcar neighborhoods and suburbs are so attractive to so many people these days and command such a premium compared to newer sprawl and automobile-centric suburbs. It is because they were built for a time when EVERYONE got around by horse and buggy as well as walking.

[Josh]

I'm not saying that Amish would want to live in upscale walkable "new-urbanism" type communities.

Just that the same features that make a community convenient for a community based on Amish horse and buggy use and walking also make a community more attractive for a lot of other people as well.

You might think so but it really doesn’t, because village centres remain very small. Very very few people want to walk or use a horse and buggy yet not live in town.

Most people end up aggravated about having to drive a car and share the road with gaggles of children at school hours and slow buggies at 2 AM during a driving snowstorm; virtually everyone who moves to the country wants to live a suburban sort of lifestyle with a car.

That is why older pre-WW2 19th and early 20th century walkable streetcar neighborhoods and suburbs are so attractive to so many people these days and command such a premium compared to newer sprawl and automobile-centric suburbs. It is because they were built for a time when EVERYONE got around by horse and buggy as well as walking.

Well, they sure are cheaper around here - it’s a lot cheaper to get a house in town than a suburban house.

In any case streetcar suburbs don’t map well to Amish style life. They aren’t afraid to travel surprisingly far distances. They just aren’t in a huge hurry. Spending an hour to get to church is completely normal.

[Valerie]

Freeways?

Move to any adjacent county (Wayne, Stark, Tuscarawas, etc.) or move to a city.

Valerie, you really are an enigma. You seem to admire the Amish and consider them some kind of authority on things. But then you seem to think it’s a really great thing if they stop being Amish and adopt more “worldly” ways.

If you think it’s great when people get fast vehicles to commute to factory jobs, might I suggest moving to a city like Cleveland?

My point was not to say Holmes County should have freeways but that because it does not large diesel trucks are in abundance all over Holmes. So they're constantly coming up on bikers, buggies, walkers.
I can admire some things about the Amish and understand them. Not once did I suggest they stop being Amish, I just said the e-bike is an answer for them in many ways. It's still a bicycle. Most of them do not go 45 mph. Mine has 750w motor but goes up to 26 mph.(manual says) My moped i had when i was 18 went 55 mph. I guess i just don't see an E-Bike as anything but convenient without the same reasons they don't embrace cars. Why should they move to Cleveland when E-bikes help their needs right there in Holmes? Why be so extreme Josh?

[Valerie]

There are plenty of horse and buggy during the week on Holmes, Wayne, and now even Columbiana Counties. A lot of Amish groups don’t allow powered bikes and scooters at all.

Yet we have noticed a big reduction of Amish horse & buggies the last year or so. They have vastly turned to Rbikes. We've been going there regularly for 39 years and Ebikes are being used by young & old (3 wheel evokes too) There's even a big charging station for them in Berlin. There are a lot of Amish owned Ebike shops now thriving. Yes the Swartzentrubers don't allow even regular bicycles either.