Response to sin

[Ken]

And, of course there is the incontrovertible fact that outlawing birth control will lead to more abortions. By both married and unmarried women of all ages. Of that there is no doubt.

But the abortion rate was much lower 100 years ago, before birth control, right?

I have no idea. Abortion has been around since ancient times. It used to be conducted by midwifes and such and was largely unregulated so there probably aren't any reliable statistics for pre-modern times.

In any event whatever happened 100 years ago is pretty irrelevant to cause and effect of various legislation today. For example, I wouldn't rely on highway fatality statistics from the 1920s to govern traffic safety regulations in the 2020s either.

[AnthonyMartin]

And, of course there is the incontrovertible fact that outlawing birth control will lead to more abortions. By both married and unmarried women of all ages. Of that there is no doubt.

But the abortion rate was much lower 100 years ago, before birth control, right?

I have no idea. Abortion has been around since ancient times. It used to be conducted by midwifes and such and was largely unregulated so there probably aren't any reliable statistics for pre-modern times.

In any event whatever happened 100 years ago is pretty irrelevant to cause and effect of various legislation today. For example, I wouldn't rely on highway fatality statistics from the 1920s to govern traffic safety regulations in the 2020s either.

If we’re discussing conditions of the heart and choices made related to pre-marital sex and pregnancy, then this is a false equivalency. The reproduction process, and morality associated with practices, hasn’t suddenly changed in the last 100 years. Unless your suggesting that that morality shouldn’t guide today’s legislation…

[steve-in-kville]

So what is your actual position with respect to birth control then:

1. Do you think it should be outlawed for everyone?
2. Do you think it should be outlawed for everyone who isn't married?
3. Do you think it should be outlawed for everyone under age 21 or age 18?
4. Do you think it should only be outlawed for Christians?

In any event, this is pretty far afield from the original subject of this thread.

We should have separate thread for this.

[Ken]

But the abortion rate was much lower 100 years ago, before birth control, right?

I have no idea. Abortion has been around since ancient times. It used to be conducted by midwifes and such and was largely unregulated so there probably aren't any reliable statistics for pre-modern times.

In any event whatever happened 100 years ago is pretty irrelevant to cause and effect of various legislation today. For example, I wouldn't rely on highway fatality statistics from the 1920s to govern traffic safety regulations in the 2020s either.

If we’re discussing conditions of the heart and choices made related to pre-marital sex and pregnancy, then this is a false equivalency. The reproduction process, and morality associated with practices, hasn’t suddenly changed in the last 100 years. Unless your suggesting that that morality shouldn’t guide today’s legislation…

I found a stat that suggested 1 in 4 pregnancies ended in abortion in the 1860s. At least in cities. So it is not a modern phenomenon.

[RZehr]

I have no idea. Abortion has been around since ancient times. It used to be conducted by midwifes and such and was largely unregulated so there probably aren't any reliable statistics for pre-modern times.

In any event whatever happened 100 years ago is pretty irrelevant to cause and effect of various legislation today. For example, I wouldn't rely on highway fatality statistics from the 1920s to govern traffic safety regulations in the 2020s either.

If we’re discussing conditions of the heart and choices made related to pre-marital sex and pregnancy, then this is a false equivalency. The reproduction process, and morality associated with practices, hasn’t suddenly changed in the last 100 years. Unless your suggesting that that morality shouldn’t guide today’s legislation…

I found a stat that suggested 1 in 4 pregnancies ended in abortion in the 1860s. At least in cities. So it is not a modern phenomenon.

We are told today that if abortion is outlawed, then women will self-harm. Either with back alley abortions or DIY. Can we look back to the 1 in 4 in the 1860's and confirm this as well?

[Ken]

If we’re discussing conditions of the heart and choices made related to pre-marital sex and pregnancy, then this is a false equivalency. The reproduction process, and morality associated with practices, hasn’t suddenly changed in the last 100 years. Unless your suggesting that that morality shouldn’t guide today’s legislation…

I found a stat that suggested 1 in 4 pregnancies ended in abortion in the 1860s. At least in cities. So it is not a modern phenomenon.

We are told today that if abortion is outlawed, then women will self-harm. Either with back alley abortions or DIY. Can we look back to the 1 in 4 in the 1860's and confirm this as well?

Well, a lot of women died trying to abort fetuses back then. At least according to the history of abortion on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion

For example:

“Contemporary estimates of mid-19th century abortion rates in the United States suggest between 20% and 25% of all pregnancies in the United States during that era ended in abortion.”

And….

“In New York, surgical abortion in 1800s carried a death rate of 30% regardless of hospital setting, and the AMA launched an anti-abortion campaign that resulted in abortion becoming the exclusive domain of doctors .“

[Josh]

That’s basically pro-abortion propaganda and nonsense.

[temporal1]

That’s basically pro-abortion propaganda and nonsense.

It is. The takeaways:

1) Understand, these are lies widely promoted in gov schools and in “health” care, via the Public Treasury;
students cannot escape exposure. If they dare differ, they will be silenced, made to feel they are backward/evil.

2) Those screaming the loudest (most destructively+violently) are those in states with NO restrictions, and ample funding for every imagineable choice to kill (via for-profit corporations). Don’t try to bypass the profiteers!

My mother used to recite (to ridiculous children): “DON’T CRY BEFORE YOU’RE HURT!”

Today, there are university courses+programs that teach “screaming before you’re hurt!” - it’s considered a valid form of lobbying for votes. No attachment to reality necessary. 24/7 SCREAMS.

It’s hard to imagine how entertained the opportunists within BIG PHARMA must be to see the multitudes carry water for them.
You have to hand it to them. Beyond clever. $$$$

It’s shameful to witness this country's highest elected leaders absolutely trash SCOTUS.
Shameful. No surprise. People are sickened. Not surprised.

[Outsider]

It’s hard to imagine how entertained the opportunists within BIG PHARMA must be to see the multitudes carry water for them.
You have to hand it to them. Beyond clever. $$$$

I've heard that planned parenthood is quietly changing it's business model to primarily be a delivered of "puberty blockers". I can't confirm this, but it would come as no surprise to me.

"Fallen, Fallen is Babylon the great!"

[temporal1]

It’s hard to imagine how entertained the opportunists within BIG PHARMA must be to see the multitudes carry water for them.
You have to hand it to them. Beyond clever. $$$$

I've heard that planned parenthood is quietly changing it's business model to primarily be a delivered of "puberty blockers". I can't confirm this, but it would come as no surprise to me.

"Fallen, Fallen is Babylon the great!"

i may have heard a mention.
something i read was, following the overturn of RvW, it was said, PP quickly closed some clinics .. which brought the question,
“if abortion is such minor part of PP, why would clinics close?”