Amen!Ernie wrote:Lessons for the church:
Don't get swept with movements and agendas. It may end badly.
Just keep being the hands and feet of Jesus. Just keep proclaiming the Good News. Just keep making disciples of all nations.
In God we trust! (this should truly describe the church and not just be a moniker.)
"Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we will remember the Name of the Lord our God."
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." (I believe this verse applies to spiritual forces, not political forces.)
Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
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MaxPC
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
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Ken
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Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Sure, but real life is not always so clear cut. And talking about this sort of thing as an issue of "character" is not accurate either.Josh wrote:I think most Mennonites (and others) would agree that lots of Mennonites have had less-than-stellar character and made big mistakes; but the point stands that Mennonite and Amish identity, essentially, revolves around nonresistance, and always has. People on the edges who do things like attend BLM or Trump rallies do exist, or enlist to fight in World War I or II, but do not really define the core of Mennonite identity.Ken wrote:Yes. But I also suspect some of Mennonite history (as cited above) is written with some of the same rose colored glasses I'm not convinced that historic Mennonites were always so noble as our histories teach. Some were, sure. I'm talking about the average folks, not those who got their names into the history books. Listing to my elder relatives and sitting through religious history classes in college I suspect that Mennonites have some of the same blinders about their past too,Josh wrote:Yep. America is founded on the myth that the Revolutionary War was somehow good; people who believe that either have to exist in a kind of schizoprenia that yesterday's activities weren't a good thing (but somehow rebelling against the government in the first place was a good thing), or else basically give it their support, believing violent revolutions to somehow bring about peace and justice to the earth.
Take for example a great uncle of mine who grew up in the WW2 era in PA in a Mennonite church and home. He would have graduated HS around 1941. He was not interested in farming and wanted to move on beyond his small Menno community, maybe go to college, see the world, etc. The war happens and his other non-Menno Christian friends who are Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. are all signing up. They have many long discussions about faith and duty and "just wars" of the sort one would expect young men at that time to have. He feels pulled in opposite directions but ultimately feels that duty compels him to sign up and that doing so isn't in conflict with his own Christian faith, even though it is opposed by his parents and church. He wound up serving in some logistics role in the European theater and then eventually returned to a successful career in shipping and logistics for some grocery or distributor out of Philly. Did he have "less than stellar character" because of the choices he made at age 18 when the whole world was in flames and institutions were pulling young men in different directions? Most certainly not. Or at least it is most certainly NOT for us to say.
My point is that when I was the same age in the early 1980s and draft registration was again, an issue. This slice of family history was carefully hidden away from me by my mother and older relatives and church. It was not talked about. Family photos of him in uniform were buried. I had no idea that I had family who had gone through the same issues as I had. I had no chance to go talk to him and ask: "Do you think you made the right decision in retrospect?" How did you reconcile these competing forces in your life? What is your advice for the next generation? We had lots of very interesting conversations with each other when I finally found out this piece of family history when I was in my 30s. It would have been nicer to know about it when I was 18 and facing the same choices myself.
Would I have made any different life choices having this history available to me? Almost certainly not. 1982 was a different time from 1942 and I had no interest in the military. But it would have been nice to know about it and not have it hidden away like some shameful family secret that no one is allowed to talk about. A church that relies on misinformation and histories that are carefully scrubbed free of competing narratives betrays weakness rather than strength in my opinion. And there is too much of that in the Mennonite church where the instinct is always to hide uncomfortable realities than confront them. Whether it is youth who struggle with nonresistance, or churches that cover up child and sex abuse.
American history, of course does exactly the same thing. For example I watched my kids take "Texas History" in middle school in Texas and in the entire state curriculum unit on Texas History there was not one single mention of the fact that slavery was the largest precipitating reason for the Texas Revolution. Mexico abolished slavery in Texas in 1830 (a year after abolishing it in the rest of Mexico). Slaveholding American planters in Texas immediately begin resistance and outright insurrection breaks out by 1835. But not one mention of the issue of slavery in the history of the Texas revolution and that the Texas revolutionaries like Stephen F. Austin were fighting for slavery.
This is kind of a far tangent from the subject at hand and I apologize for the diversion. Perhaps this is a subject for a different thread. But I wanted to push back on the notion that Mennonites who stray from the dominant historical narrative were necessarily "less-than-stellar character". History is much more complicated than that.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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Josh
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Carrying a gun to shoot people with means you don’t serve Christ. Someone who does so doesn’t have Christian character, period.Ken wrote:Sure, but real life is not always so clear cut. And talking about this sort of thing as an issue of "character" is not accurate either.Josh wrote:I think most Mennonites (and others) would agree that lots of Mennonites have had less-than-stellar character and made big mistakes; but the point stands that Mennonite and Amish identity, essentially, revolves around nonresistance, and always has. People on the edges who do things like attend BLM or Trump rallies do exist, or enlist to fight in World War I or II, but do not really define the core of Mennonite identity.Ken wrote:
Yes. But I also suspect some of Mennonite history (as cited above) is written with some of the same rose colored glasses I'm not convinced that historic Mennonites were always so noble as our histories teach. Some were, sure. I'm talking about the average folks, not those who got their names into the history books. Listing to my elder relatives and sitting through religious history classes in college I suspect that Mennonites have some of the same blinders about their past too,
Take for example a great uncle of mine who grew up in the WW2 era in PA in a Mennonite church and home. He would have graduated HS around 1941. He was not interested in farming and wanted to move on beyond his small Menno community, maybe go to college, see the world, etc. The war happens and his other non-Menno Christian friends who are Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. are all signing up. They have many long discussions about faith and duty and "just wars" of the sort one would expect young men at that time to have. He feels pulled in opposite directions but ultimately feels that duty compels him to sign up and that doing so isn't in conflict with his own Christian faith, even though it is opposed by his parents and church. He wound up serving in some logistics role in the European theater and then eventually returned to a successful career in shipping and logistics for some grocery or distributor out of Philly. Did he have "less than stellar character" because of the choices he made at age 18 when the whole world was in flames and institutions were pulling young men in different directions? Most certainly not. Or at least it is most certainly NOT for us to say.
My point is that when I was the same age in the early 1980s and draft registration was again, an issue. This slice of family history was carefully hidden away from me by my mother and older relatives and church. It was not talked about. Family photos of him in uniform were buried. I had no idea that I had family who had gone through the same issues as I had. I had no chance to go talk to him and ask: "Do you think you made the right decision in retrospect?" How did you reconcile these competing forces in your life? What is your advice for the next generation? We had lots of very interesting conversations with each other when I finally found out this piece of family history when I was in my 30s. It would have been nicer to know about it when I was 18 and facing the same choices myself.
Would I have made any different life choices having this history available to me? Almost certainly not. 1982 was a different time from 1942 and I had no interest in the military. But it would have been nice to know about it and not have it hidden away like some shameful family secret that no one is allowed to talk about. A church that relies on misinformation and histories that are carefully scrubbed free of competing narratives betrays weakness rather than strength in my opinion. And there is too much of that in the Mennonite church where the instinct is always to hide uncomfortable realities than confront them. Whether it is youth who struggle with nonresistance, or churches that cover up child and sex abuse.
American history, of course does exactly the same thing. For example I watched my kids take "Texas History" in middle school in Texas and in the entire state curriculum unit on Texas History there was not one single mention of the fact that slavery was the largest precipitating reason for the Texas Revolution. Mexico abolished slavery in Texas in 1830 (a year after abolishing it in the rest of Mexico). Slaveholding American planters in Texas immediately begin resistance and outright insurrection breaks out by 1835. But not one mention of the issue of slavery in the history of the Texas revolution and that the Texas revolutionaries like Stephen F. Austin were fighting for slavery.
This is kind of a far tangent from the subject at hand and I apologize for the diversion. Perhaps this is a subject for a different thread. But I wanted to push back on the notion that Mennonites who stray from the dominant historical narrative were necessarily "less-than-stellar character". History is much more complicated than that.
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Ken
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Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
It must be nice living in your absolutely black and white world Josh.Josh wrote:Carrying a gun to shoot people with means you don’t serve Christ. Someone who does so doesn’t have Christian character, period.Ken wrote:Sure, but real life is not always so clear cut. And talking about this sort of thing as an issue of "character" is not accurate either.Josh wrote:
I think most Mennonites (and others) would agree that lots of Mennonites have had less-than-stellar character and made big mistakes; but the point stands that Mennonite and Amish identity, essentially, revolves around nonresistance, and always has. People on the edges who do things like attend BLM or Trump rallies do exist, or enlist to fight in World War I or II, but do not really define the core of Mennonite identity.
Take for example a great uncle of mine who grew up in the WW2 era in PA in a Mennonite church and home. He would have graduated HS around 1941. He was not interested in farming and wanted to move on beyond his small Menno community, maybe go to college, see the world, etc. The war happens and his other non-Menno Christian friends who are Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. are all signing up. They have many long discussions about faith and duty and "just wars" of the sort one would expect young men at that time to have. He feels pulled in opposite directions but ultimately feels that duty compels him to sign up and that doing so isn't in conflict with his own Christian faith, even though it is opposed by his parents and church. He wound up serving in some logistics role in the European theater and then eventually returned to a successful career in shipping and logistics for some grocery or distributor out of Philly. Did he have "less than stellar character" because of the choices he made at age 18 when the whole world was in flames and institutions were pulling young men in different directions? Most certainly not. Or at least it is most certainly NOT for us to say.
My point is that when I was the same age in the early 1980s and draft registration was again, an issue. This slice of family history was carefully hidden away from me by my mother and older relatives and church. It was not talked about. Family photos of him in uniform were buried. I had no idea that I had family who had gone through the same issues as I had. I had no chance to go talk to him and ask: "Do you think you made the right decision in retrospect?" How did you reconcile these competing forces in your life? What is your advice for the next generation? We had lots of very interesting conversations with each other when I finally found out this piece of family history when I was in my 30s. It would have been nicer to know about it when I was 18 and facing the same choices myself.
Would I have made any different life choices having this history available to me? Almost certainly not. 1982 was a different time from 1942 and I had no interest in the military. But it would have been nice to know about it and not have it hidden away like some shameful family secret that no one is allowed to talk about. A church that relies on misinformation and histories that are carefully scrubbed free of competing narratives betrays weakness rather than strength in my opinion. And there is too much of that in the Mennonite church where the instinct is always to hide uncomfortable realities than confront them. Whether it is youth who struggle with nonresistance, or churches that cover up child and sex abuse.
American history, of course does exactly the same thing. For example I watched my kids take "Texas History" in middle school in Texas and in the entire state curriculum unit on Texas History there was not one single mention of the fact that slavery was the largest precipitating reason for the Texas Revolution. Mexico abolished slavery in Texas in 1830 (a year after abolishing it in the rest of Mexico). Slaveholding American planters in Texas immediately begin resistance and outright insurrection breaks out by 1835. But not one mention of the issue of slavery in the history of the Texas revolution and that the Texas revolutionaries like Stephen F. Austin were fighting for slavery.
This is kind of a far tangent from the subject at hand and I apologize for the diversion. Perhaps this is a subject for a different thread. But I wanted to push back on the notion that Mennonites who stray from the dominant historical narrative were necessarily "less-than-stellar character". History is much more complicated than that.
How many of the 12 Disciples do you think you would need to purge for lacking Christian character because they carried swords and, therefore, weren't serving Christ?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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Bootstrap
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
hillperson wrote:What are lessons we can learn from the riots in DC on January 6. So far our discussions are about what happened, who was right, who was wrong. Historically we as Anabaptists know politics is no place for the church. With the current president many Anabaptists have been getting more and more involved.
Where should the church find themselves while the heathen rage? You know as the night grows darker true Christianity will shine brighter.
I think we really can learn from history. We don't want history to remember Mennonites like this.
That means our passion needs to be for Jesus and his Kingdom. Not for charismatic leaders who promise to protect "us" from "them". We are strangers and aliens in any land. We are servants of all people. We cannot swear loyalty to any political leader, political party, nation, or ethnic identity. We cannot echo their grievances or their rage.All other Mennonites today stand firmly on an unwavering affirmation of their German racial identity. More than many other groups, the Mennonites perceive the times today as a great transformation in their tragic fate of having constantly been a people on the move. They deeply recognize the magnitude of the present epoch, a time in which whole population groups have taken off—in the middle of the war and after hundreds and hundreds of years in unfriendly foreign lands—to the country of their forefathers, which has called them all to return home. For the new German Empire has living space (Lebensraum) for all of its children. The era in which they were forced to bleed out in the service of foreign peoples, the era in which Germans forgot about each other, has come to an end.
I think there's more to it than that. Remember, Hitler was the guy who burned the Reichstag and blamed it on the Jews. He was a "burn it all down" kind of guy, appealing to fanatical loyalty to German nationalism and German nationalist grievances. And Mennonites who were loyal to Hitler betrayed deep Mennonite values.Ken wrote:Lots of German Mennonites also supported Hitler and the Nazi party. Why?
They cited Romans 13 and believed that God commanded it
Last edited by Bootstrap on Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bootstrap
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Kudos to Hillperson for quoting this. I suspect this is what most people on MennoNet have in common - we at least recognize that this is what we believe. And we often need to be reminded of that.
This is always deeply at odds with what the world around us teaches. This is not the attitude of insurrectionists or conspiracy theorists or of people who don't believe in biblical sexuality or holiness. Servanthood, holiness, love, and discipleship are central to any Christian walk.
This is always deeply at odds with what the world around us teaches. This is not the attitude of insurrectionists or conspiracy theorists or of people who don't believe in biblical sexuality or holiness. Servanthood, holiness, love, and discipleship are central to any Christian walk.
Bootstrap wrote:Let me reformat it a bit.
Here is a different translation.True evangelical faith is of such a nature it cannot lie dormant, but spreads itself out in all kinds of righteousness and fruits of love;
it dies to flesh and blood;
it destroys all lusts and forbidden desires;
it seeks, serves and fears God in its inmost soul;
it clothes the naked;
it feeds the hungry;
it comforts the sorrowful;
it shelters the destitute;
it aids and consoles the sad;
it does good to those who do it harm;
it serves those that harm it;
it prays for those who persecute it;
it teaches, admonishes and judges us with the Word of the Lord;
it seeks those who are lost;
it binds up what is wounded;
it heals the sick;
it saves what is strong (sound);
it becomes all things to all people.
The persecution, suffering and anguish that come to it for the sake of the Lord’s truth have become a glorious joy and comfort to it.
-- Menno Simons
For true evangelical faith is of such a nature that it cannot lay dormant, but manifests itself in all righteousness and works of love;
it dies unto flesh and blood;
destroys all forbidden lusts and desires;
cordially seeks, serves and fears God;
clothes the naked;
feeds the hungry;
consoles the afflicted;
shelters the miserable;
aids and consoles all the oppressed;
returns good for evil;
serves those that injure it;
prays for those that persecute it;
teaches, admonishes and reproves with the Word of the Lord;
seeks that which is lost;
binds up that which is wounded;
heals that which is diseased and saves that which is sound.
The persecution, suffering and anxiety which befalls it for the sake of the truth of the Lord, is to it a glorious joy and consolation.
-- Menno Simons
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Bootstrap
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Purge? None. But when they use a sword in anger, we should say this to them:Ken wrote:It must be nice living in your absolutely black and white world Josh.Josh wrote:Carrying a gun to shoot people with means you don’t serve Christ. Someone who does so doesn’t have Christian character, period.
How many of the 12 Disciples do you think you would need to purge for lacking Christian character because they carried swords and, therefore, weren't serving Christ?
“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
We need to learn from Jesus. We don't want our teaching on love and peace to be a sham. Here's how one Nazi cynically described Mennonite pacifism in practice. A reminder that we need to be very careful about our allegiances.Then Jesus told him, “Put your sword back in its place because all who take up the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot call on my Father, and he will provide me here and now with more than twelve legions of angels? How, then, would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”
The most controversial distinctive teaching of the Mennonites is their so-called nonresistance. At the time of the Reformation the Mennonites protested against the Wars of Religion. Based on the principle of the freedom of conscience, no one should be coerced in matters of faith. For the same reason, it is also not permitted to use the sword in matters of faith. Thus, initially, nonresistance was a protest against confessional wars.
Since the wars of those times were not fought over matters regarding the fatherland, but rather over matters of belief, it would be wrong to equate Mennonite nonresistance with an attitude of passivity or indifference to the fatherland. Nonresistance itself has always been a matter of fierce debate among Mennonites themselves, especially in more recent times when military service has become a duty to the fatherland and to the nation. Mennonites actually supported the national war of liberation under William of Orange and, as I have already noted, the promotional office of General Yorck was located in a Mennonite home. Today Mennonites throughout the German Empire all serve the state as soldiers and officers with weapons in their hands. The majority of the Mennonite fellowship elsewhere today also supports military service without restriction (see, for example, the Mennonite “Self Defense” units in the time around 1917 and the cavalry regiment they established in the Halbstadt region).
The eastern settlements, along with the colonies in Russia and abroad were granted freedom from military service in order to attract settlers. In Russia, this was granted not only to Mennonites but to all German
colonists up until 1874. At that point, not only Mennonites, but also Lutherans and Catholics emigrated abroad because this privilege was withdrawn. The Mennonites under tsarist rule successfully reached an agreement regarding alternative state labor service (forestry service). So only 15,000 Mennonites left Russia as a result of the loss of this privilege.
In the Russian Civil War, Mennonites in Russia fought alongside people from other colonies against anarchy. Their Self Defense units were well known. The Russian Germans in Brazil and Paraguay have made it known in Germany that they are prepared to give their sons to the German fatherland unconditionally.
Mennonite nonresistance therefore has nothing to do with any sort of pacifism. This frequently misunderstood principle was originally simply a protest against the use of violent and warlike means in the area of religion. In the course of German migrations, German farmers, including the Mennonites, have reserved the right to the privilege of nonresistance or an alternative service without weapons. That was reasonable, since they knew that otherwise circumstances could lead them into the danger of being obliged to take up arms against their own people. One needs to look at these things too more from the standpoint of ethnic Germans.
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Ken
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Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Of the 16 million Americans who served in the armed forces in WW2, less than 1 million of them saw combat or were in units where they would have had occasion to fire weapons: https://www.pbs.org/thewar/at_war_infan ... 20overseas.Bootstrap wrote:Purge? None. But when they use a sword in anger, we should say this to them:Ken wrote:It must be nice living in your absolutely black and white world Josh.Josh wrote:Carrying a gun to shoot people with means you don’t serve Christ. Someone who does so doesn’t have Christian character, period.
How many of the 12 Disciples do you think you would need to purge for lacking Christian character because they carried swords and, therefore, weren't serving Christ?
“My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”Then Jesus told him, “Put your sword back in its place because all who take up the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot call on my Father, and he will provide me here and now with more than twelve legions of angels? How, then, would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way?”
After WW2 the Army conducted a famous study in which they concluded that fewer than 25% of men in combat actually fired their weapons, and an even smaller percentage fired to kill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.L.A._MarshallMore than 16 million Americans served in the armed forces during the war. Fewer than a million ever saw serious combat. The infantry represented just 14 percent of the troops overseas. But wherever they fought – in North Africa or the South Pacific or Western Europe — the infantry bore the brunt of the fighting on the ground — and seven out of ten suffered casualties.
So were the Mennonite farmers who grew grain and sold it into the war effort for profit better Christians than the Merchant Marine sailors who transported it across the Atlantic in "Liberty Ships"? or the the Army logistics officers and Army transport battalions who transported the grain to the front lines? or the soldiers on the front lines who ate the grain but didn't fire their weapons? or the soldiers on the front line who did fire their weapons but didn't kill anyone? Or those who did fire and did kill?
Maybe they were the only "true" Christians in Josh's black and white world. I'm not so convinced.
I'm not sure what this tangent has to do with the subject at hand, which is lessons for the Church from the DC riots. But I think the answer is that questions of morality and the role for Christians in the world is never as black and white as some would suggest. Individual circumstances do matter and the world is often full of shades of gray. Because short of completely separating from the world economy and living life like a hermit on a desert island, one is never truly apart from worldly affairs.
Last edited by Ken on Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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ohio jones
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
Their family and church at the time certainly considered them so, even if you don't agree.Ken wrote:But I wanted to push back on the notion that Mennonites who stray from the dominant historical narrative were necessarily "less-than-stellar character".
I do think every family (and perhaps every church) needs to have an airing of the skeletons every now and then, though not constantly. My grandpa chose to speak forthrightly at times about the sins of his father, even though some of his siblings tried to keep things hidden; their children and grandchildren felt somewhat betrayed, as you did, when they found out.
"Ken, you're old enough to know this now; your grandfather broke into the Capitol during the DC Riots of '21."
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Bootstrap
Re: Lessons for the Church from the DC Riots
I would find it helpful if you could start separate threads when you are questioning the core premises behind Mennonite belief and practice. Some of us are really trying hard to figure out how to apply these beliefs to the messy world around us. That's a different conversation than whether we should believe these things in the first place.Ken wrote:I'm not sure what this tangent has to do with the subject at hand, which is lessons for the Church from the DC riots. But I think the answer is that questions of morality and the role for Christians in the world is never as black and white as some would suggest. Individual circumstances do matter and the world is often full of shades of gray.
I feel the same way about people who suggest political allegiances are crucial for true Christians. I would love to be able to discuss these questions without that baggage.
For instance, when I started a thread saying that our allegiances to political leaders and parties aren't bringing down abortions, it was hard to keep that topic in focus because it became a debate about whether we are right about abortion in the first place. I wanted to have a discussion about how we, as Two Kingdom Christians, relate to That Other Kingdom, our allegiances, and how cheaply we are willing to sell our birthright for a pot of lentils.
In this thread, I really think the crucial conversation is about how we live out our core beliefs, not whether we should have them.
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