I really have no idea what point Aaron is trying to make.Aaron wrote:glutathioneSoloist wrote:I agree......Aaron wrote: God is not mistaken at all .....
Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
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Josh
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
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MaxPC
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
Neither do I. Bot maybe? Spam?Josh wrote:I really have no idea what point Aaron is trying to make.Aaron wrote:glutathioneSoloist wrote:
I agree......
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Josh
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
I’d appreciate talking more about the original topic.
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Ernie
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
Audio: https://www.churchplantersforum.org/eve ... reat-2014/ (last one on the page)Ambassador wrote:You are completely missing my heart cry Josh. Listen to Ernest Eby's message on the 2014 church planters forum and retreat. No Greater Burden. If someone could link that here it would be great.
Document: https://www.churchplantersforum.org/wp- ... -2014-.pdf
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Ernie
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
For some reason it seems nearly impossible in generational conservative Anabaptist settings to give newcomers some latitude while expecting those who grew up with the traditions to keep their traditions. For some reason there is a sizeable percentage of conservative Anabaptists who head for the least common denominator when given the chance.
The early church dealt with the same issue. Some wanted Gentile Christians to keep the Jewish cultural practices. Others like Paul and the apostles did not think this was necessary. They made exceptions for the Gentiles but expected the Jews to continue on with their cultural practices. I wish we could do the same but I don't know how to make it happen.
What happens is that if variety is allowed, some in the church will start pushing for new innovations or a new uniform. my wife and daughters are fine with wearing Mennonite garb even though we don't require this of newcomers. But others in our church think that the Anabaptist raised ladies in our church should adopt a new "uniform" that can be purchased at the thrift store. If my wife went thrift store shopping, she would spend as much time looking for something suitable as what she would spend sewing. My wife does not particularly enjoy shopping and would rather be at home. Pressuring her to adopt store-bought clothing is no different in my mind than pressuring someone to wear a cape dress.
For some reason conservative Anabaptists (and many conservative Christians) are not comfortable with multi-cultural expressions and diversity in a church. They like uniformity. They also like conformity. As long as they are convinced that the conservative Anabaptist way of life is good, they are glad to conform to the church uniform. But when they begin doubting the CA way of life, they begin conforming to the surrounding society. The downside of religious freedom is that we don't have any way to sort out the people who are willing to be the off scouring of the world, from those who want to be part of the world. Consequently we have these mixtures in our churches and there is an element that tends to drag the church toward the world anytime it gets a little rope.
I'm sorry I don't have much advice for young ministers in CA conferences and fellowships. If your church has any respect for Chambersburg Fellowship, you could get some advice from them. They are trying to be considerate of newcomers, while holding their own Anabaptist people to a more non-conformed expression in attire.
Recently Gary Miller from ID mentioned being in a city with a young missionary who just previously went to church with dark pants and white shirt and shirt collar closed. Now he was ministering to people in jeans with his shirt tail out all around.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the latter, but what the young man doesn't realize is that we are all formed by a culture, and when people unwrap from one culture, they rarely re-wrap properly in the new culture. They don't realize that there are a whole set of things that go along with the new culture they they know very little about. A bishop gave me this warning many years ago when I was leaving one culture to become part of another and I always appreciated his observation. It has guided me as I moved from one culture to another the last couple decades.
The early church dealt with the same issue. Some wanted Gentile Christians to keep the Jewish cultural practices. Others like Paul and the apostles did not think this was necessary. They made exceptions for the Gentiles but expected the Jews to continue on with their cultural practices. I wish we could do the same but I don't know how to make it happen.
What happens is that if variety is allowed, some in the church will start pushing for new innovations or a new uniform. my wife and daughters are fine with wearing Mennonite garb even though we don't require this of newcomers. But others in our church think that the Anabaptist raised ladies in our church should adopt a new "uniform" that can be purchased at the thrift store. If my wife went thrift store shopping, she would spend as much time looking for something suitable as what she would spend sewing. My wife does not particularly enjoy shopping and would rather be at home. Pressuring her to adopt store-bought clothing is no different in my mind than pressuring someone to wear a cape dress.
For some reason conservative Anabaptists (and many conservative Christians) are not comfortable with multi-cultural expressions and diversity in a church. They like uniformity. They also like conformity. As long as they are convinced that the conservative Anabaptist way of life is good, they are glad to conform to the church uniform. But when they begin doubting the CA way of life, they begin conforming to the surrounding society. The downside of religious freedom is that we don't have any way to sort out the people who are willing to be the off scouring of the world, from those who want to be part of the world. Consequently we have these mixtures in our churches and there is an element that tends to drag the church toward the world anytime it gets a little rope.
I'm sorry I don't have much advice for young ministers in CA conferences and fellowships. If your church has any respect for Chambersburg Fellowship, you could get some advice from them. They are trying to be considerate of newcomers, while holding their own Anabaptist people to a more non-conformed expression in attire.
Recently Gary Miller from ID mentioned being in a city with a young missionary who just previously went to church with dark pants and white shirt and shirt collar closed. Now he was ministering to people in jeans with his shirt tail out all around.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the latter, but what the young man doesn't realize is that we are all formed by a culture, and when people unwrap from one culture, they rarely re-wrap properly in the new culture. They don't realize that there are a whole set of things that go along with the new culture they they know very little about. A bishop gave me this warning many years ago when I was leaving one culture to become part of another and I always appreciated his observation. It has guided me as I moved from one culture to another the last couple decades.
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Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
Eby's message had some good points in it, for some time now I've wondered why the standards that are so practical and specific as to not hold (much) biblical merit even need to exist. I have an idea why these standards exist, but I hope I'm wrong...
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I believe that God ordained brokenness is not a matter of you being destroyed by God, but a matter of your old man being broken in order to set you free.
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RZehr
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
It is very wrong thinking to view the Mennonite churches as “different rungs on a ladder” or in any 2D linear line, going from barn door pants to doily coverings, for example. I dare say most Mennonites view ourselves this way.
I’m not sure exactly how accurate my idea is either, but it is much more accurate to view these churches as a cone shape. Each step to the left increases the circumference. The more liberal you move, you are broadening and including many more ideas and things than simply moving a bit to the left on the spectrum, while retaining much of the same concepts as if in a tube.
Thus, it causes great consternation in an ultra conservative person to find out his new home church isn’t just allowing t shirts, but also doesn’t find a huge problem with concealed carry.
I’m not sure exactly how accurate my idea is either, but it is much more accurate to view these churches as a cone shape. Each step to the left increases the circumference. The more liberal you move, you are broadening and including many more ideas and things than simply moving a bit to the left on the spectrum, while retaining much of the same concepts as if in a tube.
Thus, it causes great consternation in an ultra conservative person to find out his new home church isn’t just allowing t shirts, but also doesn’t find a huge problem with concealed carry.
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Josh
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
There’s a denomination that holds to this idea called “BMA”, where they try not have any standard unless a Bible verse can be exegeted to support that standard.Lonny90 wrote:Eby's message had some good points in it, for some time now I've wondered why the standards that are so practical and specific as to not hold (much) biblical merit even need to exist. I have an idea why these standards exist, but I hope I'm wrong...
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Ken
- Posts: 21863
- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
- Location: Washington State
- Affiliation: former MCUSA
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
I dunno though. Over the past 40 years or so I can remember many many instances of sitting around listening to my elders (especially in PA) meticulously dissecting what this group or that group allows or doesn't allow. Most of my old folk relatives who have lived their lives around the whole spectrum of the Menno-world seem to think of it that way. And tend to fixate on the outward appearances rather than theological distinctions.RZehr wrote:It is very wrong thinking to view the Mennonite churches as “different rungs on a ladder” or in any 2D linear line, going from barn door pants to doily coverings, for example. I dare say most Mennonites view ourselves this way.
I’m not sure exactly how accurate my idea is either, but it is much more accurate to view these churches as a cone shape. Each step to the left increases the circumference. The more liberal you move, you are broadening and including many more ideas and things than simply moving a bit to the left on the spectrum, while retaining much of the same concepts as if in a tube.
Thus, it causes great consternation in an ultra conservative person to find out his new home church isn’t just allowing t shirts, but also doesn’t find a huge problem with concealed carry.
I mean yes, your cone metaphor actually makes more descriptive sense in that liberal groups are more expansive than conservative groups. There aren't a lot of things that ultra conservative groups allow that more liberal groups prohibit. Other than perhaps some of the archaic Amish stuff like Rumspringa and bunding.
But I think most ordinary people just think of it as a conservative to liberal spectrum and describe it that way.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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steve-in-kville
Re: Culture, has it become a burden and stumbling block.
Can you give me an example? I work with a few BMA and they seem more KMF-ish than anything.Josh wrote: There’s a denomination that holds to this idea called “BMA”, where they try not have any standard unless a Bible verse can be exegeted to support that standard.
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