Why do Swiss Anabaptists practice ethnic separatism from other Anabaptists?

[JohnH]

Neto,

As I understand it, Mennonite Brethren groups were principally Molosch but upon arrival in America tended to abandon the practice of ethnic separatism between Molosch, Polsch, and others.

I’ve always found referring to such people as “Plautdeitsch” a bit amiss, since it treats very distinct people as one group. We already have excellent descriptors for them - Flemish and Frisian, which are still significant ethnic groups to this day.

[Neto]

Something I feel fairly certain that I do see in Amish and Swiss Mennonite culture is a tendency to regard one's grandchildren who carry your own surname a bit differently than those who are the children of one's own daughters. (That is, the former are 'favored' in some ways. This is not surprising in paternalistic cultures, but as an 'out-law' can feel a bit 'offensive' - finding one's own children occasionally subtly treated as 'second-class grandchildren'. But I am not 'offended'. I have tried to think of a softer term, but cannot think of how else I should say it.)

Wife: that would be kind of horrifying if I saw it, but I wonder if at least occasionally, it might also have to do with the girl moving to the son’s community. I can imagine that there are some people that are really that petty, but I do wonder if it might actually be accidental at times because the grandparents see those grandchildren all the time. My children are much closer to daddy’s parents than mine because we live nearby (although my parents spoil them rotten when they get the chance ). I think when I hear all about my friends’ grandchildren, they don’t seem to have a preference and go on and on about their daughters’ children, but maybe it is more common in certain areas.

We live in my wife's community. It is my parents with whom our children never really 'bonded' - we were there infrequently to start with, because of living in Brazil, but then also over 900 miles away when we were home on furlough. One time we lived in Oklahoma for 6 weeks in one stretch. Other than that is was only brief visits.

[Neto]

Neto,

As I understand it, Mennonite Brethren groups were principally Molosch but upon arrival in America tended to abandon the practice of ethnic separatism between Molosch, Polsch, and others.

I’ve always found referring to such people as “Plautdeitsch” a bit amiss, since it treats very distinct people as one group. We already have excellent descriptors for them - Flemish and Frisian, which are still significant ethnic groups to this day.

I now understand 'Polsch' to mean 'Polish', and can only assume that 'Molosch' might be derived from 'Molotschna', but that is just the colony name, there is really nothing 'ethnic' about it. The MB church DID start in the Molotschna, but very soon MB congregations were also formed in the Cortitsa, as well as in other newer colonies. But I have never heard either of those terms used by any Plautdietsch, only from you. (We also don't say 'Plautdeitsch' - my impression is that that's in High German. But here among the Amish people they often seem to correct me, saying, "Oh, you mean 'Plautdeutsch'', which is, I think, an even more High German designation, or maybe in Datsch?)

There were no Church of God in Christ congregations anywhere near our community in Oklahoma, nor in western Oklahoma where my Dad came from. Anyway, I never personally met any Holdemans other than yourself, and you weren't with them yet at that time, either. I don't doubt you that those terms are used among the Holdeman people, I have just never heard them from anyone else.

Some people with 'Russian Mennonite' background DO use that term as an ethnic designation, but many also agree that it should rather be only used as a 'religious' designation, and that Plautdietsch is the best term for the ethnic designation. Even then, it is not an ethnic term in the same sense that 'Cheyenne' or 'Comanche' is, because if it can be called an ethnic grouping at all, it is a recent one, because it can only be said to have formed as early as the 1700's, during the time period in which the Plautdietsch language itself developed.

Regarding specifically Mennonite Brethren, I don't know for sure about all of my great great and great grandparents, but judging from baptismal dates, I suspect that most of them were not MBs until after immigration to North America. (The MB church only accepted immersion until the early 1960's, so for those already married, these dates indicate rebaptisms.)

[JohnH]

I now understand 'Polsch' to mean 'Polish', and can only assume that 'Molosch' might be derived from 'Molotschna', but that is just the colony name, there is really nothing 'ethnic' about it.

They are terms used by people to refer to the two different ethnic groups. The Frisians picked up the term "Polsch" when they were in, well, Poland. The "Molosch" picked up the term due to them living beside the Molotschna river.

"Polsch" and "Molosch" are terms the two groups tended to call each other (as far as I understand) and eventually the monikers stuck. As I understand it, at one point the dialects were quite different.

The MB church DID start in the Molotschna, but very soon MB congregations were also formed in the Cortitsa, as well as in other newer colonies. But I have never heard either of those terms used by any Plautdietsch, only from you.

As I understand it, Molosch people have tended to be much more likely to be theologically "innovative" or to start new movements, such as the Mennonite Brethren movement and the Kleine Gemeinde.

You can find a few references to "Molosch" in old Mennonite publications.

(We also don't say 'Plautdeitsch' - my impression is that that's in High German. But here among the Amish people they often seem to correct me, saying, "Oh, you mean 'Plautdeutsch'', which is, I think, an even more High German designation, or maybe in Datsch?)

I am only regularly around 3 speakers of "Plat", as they call it, and they just call it "Plat", as in "We still understand Plat" or "We went to Russia and found a community of people who all spoke Plat and could understand us and we could understand them." Or they just call it "German", as in my wife's grandmother saying "When I grew up, I only spoke German." Of course, lots more people are descendants of Plat speakers, including their parents, but in Holdeman circles it is generally considered best to raise your children speaking the local language, so things like Pennsylvania Dutch, Plat, or Bernese German just don't get passed down.

There were no Church of God in Christ congregations anywhere near our community in Oklahoma, nor in western Oklahoma where my Dad came from. Anyway, I never personally met any Holdemans other than yourself, and you weren't with them yet at that time, either. I don't doubt you that those terms are used among the Holdeman people, I have just never heard them from anyone else.

I think what is unique in Holdeman circles is that there is a confluence of both Molosch and Polsch people, so they both had to figure out who each other are and interact with each other, as opposed to simply being groups that are entirely Molosch or Polsch people.

It is particularly fascinating that these groups managed to all migrate to the Vistula Delta, then to Russia (present-day Ukraine), and then to the New World, although Flemish were more likely to end up in Canada (and consequently Mexico) and Frisians in Kansas.

Some people with 'Russian Mennonite' background DO use that term as an ethnic designation, but many also agree that it should rather be only used as a 'religious' designation, and that Plautdietsch is the best term for the ethnic designation.

I think "Russian Mennonite" is an ethnic term at this point and it is the most readily understood term, and it is also what many people call themselves, so I'd stick with that. I haven't run into anyone who would describe themselves as "Plautdietsch" (except you, I guess).

Even then, it is not an ethnic term in the same sense that 'Cheyenne' or 'Comanche' is, because if it can be called an ethnic grouping at all, it is a recent one, because it can only be said to have formed as early as the 1700's, during the time period in which the Plautdietsch language itself developed.

It is certainly an ethnic grouping, particularly since the two groups were endogamous for so long, and in any case people generally are comfortable referring to ethnic Anabaptists as, well, ethnic groups.

In any case, it is notable how Russian Mennonites (or whatever you want to call them) tend to be so different from Swiss Brethren-background Anabaptists. I would also say that the Molosch in particular ways of thinking/behaving are far closer to how British-background people such as myself tend to think and behave, and Swiss Brethren are at a farther distance; this should not be surprising considering the much closer cultural ties between the British Isles and the Netherlands, not to mention that Frisian and English are the most closely related languages for an additional "double whammy" from the Polsch side of things. I think this is part of the reason there are significantly more (American and ultimately British background) seekers in Holdeman circles. The culture is simply less foreign.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

But groups like churchindex.org make this claim:

"A map-index of Anabaptist and similar churches."

When in reality it is not so. It should better be called "A map-index of Anabaptist churches which are primarily composed of people of Swiss Brethren background, and excluding churches that do not have this ethnic background."

That website has criteria, and will list any church that its the criteria if they have some sort of reasonable consent from someone who speaks for the church being listed.
I'm not sure if it is stated outright on the site anymore, but it used to say explicitly that they would not list churches who considered themselves "the one true church" at the exclusion of other churches listed on the site. Such churches generally would prefer not to be listed on such a general directory anyway, so they are unlikely to get consent from those churches.

But this goes to show that the exclusivity isn't found in Swiss Anabaptists (and certainly not churchindex.or); it's in the groups who are self-excluding. Claiming they are exclusive to ethnic-Swiss is silly when there are Hutterite churches and even churches (I have visited at least one personally) with little to no ethic-anabaptist members at all. They seem to include anyone in their criteria except for those who choose to self-exclude; Holdemans and Apostolics would be examples of this. As for Russian Menonnites, I think there are a number of them listed in Canada, ad some others might not meet some of the more specific criteria on churchindex (like refusal to wear a wedding band).

[JohnH]

That website has criteria, and will list any church that its the criteria if they have some sort of reasonable consent from someone who speaks for the church being listed.
I'm not sure if it is stated outright on the site anymore, but it used to say explicitly that they would not list churches who considered themselves "the one true church" at the exclusion of other churches listed on the site. Such churches generally would prefer not to be listed on such a general directory anyway, so they are unlikely to get consent from those churches.

Yet the Apostolic Christian Church isn't remotely one-true-church oriented anymore. They are pretty much the same as a moderate-conservative or fundamental-conservative Mennonite church like BMA, etc.

[But this goes to show that the exclusivity isn't found in Swiss Anabaptists (and certainly not churchindex.or); it's in the groups who are self-excluding. Claiming they are exclusive to ethnic-Swiss is silly when there are Hutterite churches and even churches (I have visited at least one personally) with little to no ethic-anabaptist members at all. They seem to include anyone in their criteria except for those who choose to self-exclude; Holdemans and Apostolics would be examples of this. As for Russian Menonnites, I think there are a number of them listed in Canada, ad some others might not meet some of the more specific criteria on churchindex (like refusal to wear a wedding band).

I wouldn't say Holdemans "self-exclude". It's not like we are going around trying to keep the addresses of our churches secret or something. I mean, there's a sign out by the road, and they're usually in the telephone book, which nowadays means a listing on Google Maps.

Personally, I would prefer my church not be listed anywhere associated with Jeriah Mast's congregation that had the gall to go to court and ask for leniency in his sentencing.

[Praxis+Theodicy]

I wouldn't say Holdemans "self-exclude". It's not like we are going around trying to keep the addresses of our churches secret or something. I mean, there's a sign out by the road, and they're usually in the telephone book, which nowadays means a listing on Google Maps.

Then use the contact form on churchindex ad request that your church be included. And check with your church structure to see if they are all okay with being included on such a general index as this one.

Personally, I would prefer my church not be listed anywhere associated with Jeriah Mast's congregation that had the gall to go to court and ask for leniency in his sentencing.

Oh, okay... nevermind? I think you found your problem, and once again, it is not Swiss anabaptists excluding, it is others (yourself, in this case), who are choosing to elf-exclude.

[R7ehr]

Holdemans and Apostolics don't claim to publish directories of all Anabaptist churches.

Why don’t they start? What is keeping them from it?

[JohnH]

Holdemans and Apostolics don't claim to publish directories of all Anabaptist churches.

Why don’t they start? What is keeping them from it?

I can't speak for ACs, but overall, we don't feel it's our place to decide which churches should and should not be in a church directory/index since we aren't part of them and can't make the judgment whether they are a "worthy" church or not.

[Heirbyadoption]

There were also a lot of German Baptist’s, which I don’t know their ethnic roots.

Probably German, but that's just a wild guess.

The German Baptists (technically, Old German Baptist Brethren, more commonly referred to as Brethren in literary works and documentation, both to distinguish from Mennos and the actually Baptist-origin "German Baptists" in Germany) were Anabaptist-influenced, nonresistant Radical Pietists in Germany (primary around the Palatinate area) who organized in Schwarzenau Germany in 1708 under the leadership of a ex-Lutheran named Alexander Mack and desired a more accountable church life committed to holy living and literal obedience to Scripture, as opposed to what they saw in the Lutheran, Reformed, and Catholic churches around them. They came to America a decade or two later, have generally continued to mingle with (and at times intermarry) Anabaptists by virtue of shared doctrine and practices (though they have generally remained unapologetic immersionists...), and for all intents and purposes would fall under the typical "conservative Anabaptist" umbrella, with varying degrees of "Plain" culture among many of their descendant groups.

Neto, As I understand it, Mennonite Brethren groups were principally Molosch but upon arrival in America tended to abandon the practice of ethnic separatism between Molosch, Polsch, and others. I’ve always found referring to such people as “Plautdeitsch” a bit amiss, since it treats very distinct people as one group. We already have excellent descriptors for them - Flemish and Frisian, which are still significant ethnic groups to this day.

By "We", do you mean Holdemans, or are you speaking generally of documentors and sociological purveyors of Russian Mennodom? I never really encountered those terms in my several years of working with and occasionally attending Holdeman services or visiting their homes when I lived out in Cali... I did, however, sit under a few OTC sermons, and even heard the "true believers will eventually migrate to us" implications. That made for lively Sunday lunch conversations, at the very least. Bear in mind, I was one of only 2 OGBBs to consistently interact with them since their leadership stopped the mingling between the Holdeman and OGBB youth back in the 70s, and with the exception of a couple good friends there, I was consistently reminded that I was outside of the only guaranteed "worthy" part of the Church. And respectfully, the over-generalization of the OP could equally apply in my Holdeman experiences, even though I have found a few exceptions (notably among the younger generation), which has been encouraging!