Mennonites and War

[JohnH]

Some wars are more like a husband who abuses his wife and children.

Generally speaking, I don't think we would support said wife and children arming themselves and then attempting to shoot the husband, right?

[JohnH]

Let's take things closer to home. For example, Baltimore has been discussed here. What do you recommend that the city of Baltimore do to address violent crime? And how should the city of Baltimore and the criminal justice system follow the commands of Jesus in doing so?

Is the "city of Baltimore" a person?

As far as individual employees who work for the city, or elected representatives... same thing as anyone else - repent and follow Jesus and accept his gospel of peace.

[Bootstrap]

A good analogy indeed is a husband and wife who are constantly fighting / bickering and neither one is willing to just stop.

That analogy works sometimes—when both sides are caught in cycles of pride or revenge. But not all wars are like that.

Some wars are more like a husband who abuses his wife and children. And if all we can say to her is, “Just submit,” or “You’re both at fault,” we’re not promoting peace—we’re compounding the harm and enabling the abuse. And sometimes abuse thrives even in our own circles—not because we approve of it, but because we’re so reluctant to name it clearly. Our desire for peace can turn into silence. Our calls for submission can be twisted into complicity. If we want to be faithful to Jesus, we need the courage to tell the truth—even when it’s uncomfortable.

I believe Caesar may bear the sword—that’s part of God’s provision for restraining evil through government (Romans 13). But as followers of Jesus, we’re called to a different path. That doesn’t mean we ignore the difference between aggression and self-defense. It means we refuse to be the ones who kill, even when others might see it as justified.

We can still grieve evil, name injustice, and stand with the oppressed. But we do so as people shaped by the cross, not the sword.

So then, considering your analogy, as people shaped by the cross and as followers of Jesus' commands, what should we recommend to the Ukrainians as a response to Putin's invasion? How can we recommend that they do anything other than what Jesus commands us to do when we are persecuted or mistreated?

Well, let’s stay with the marriage analogy.

We don’t tell the abused wife to shoot her husband. But we also don’t scold her for defending herself, and we certainly don’t act as if both are equally at fault. We acknowledge her suffering. We name the abuse clearly. We show compassion to her, not to the abuser’s excuses.

And then we ask: How can we help?
Can we offer shelter? Protection? Support?
But not by picking up a gun and shooting her husband ourselves.

In the same way, I don’t believe it’s our place as Christians to kill. But that doesn’t mean we ignore injustice, or scold the abused for defending themselves. It means we respond as people shaped by the cross—with truth, compassion, and a refusal to return evil for evil.

[Bootstrap]

Let's take things closer to home. For example, Baltimore has been discussed here. What do you recommend that the city of Baltimore do to address violent crime? And how should the city of Baltimore and the criminal justice system follow the commands of Jesus in doing so?

Is the "city of Baltimore" a person?

Before Citizen's United, I knew how to answer that question.

Either way, I don’t think Ukraine or Baltimore is a “person” in the biblical sense. One has a military, the other has a police force. Both wield the sword (Romans 13). In practice, it’s still people who wield it—whether it’s a sword, a drone, a Taser, or a Glock 17 Gen 5.

As far as individual employees who work for the city, or elected representatives... same thing as anyone else - repent and follow Jesus and accept his gospel of peace.

I agree. Though I think there are some positions where I could morally work for a city.

But when a police officer arrests a rapist, do we act as if the officer and the rapist are morally equivalent? Do we suggest, in forum discussions, that the officer must repent for the force he used to stop the crime? Do we insist that the police officer and the rapist are two sides of the same coin?

[Ken]

Let's take things closer to home. For example, Baltimore has been discussed here. What do you recommend that the city of Baltimore do to address violent crime? And how should the city of Baltimore and the criminal justice system follow the commands of Jesus in doing so?

Is the "city of Baltimore" a person?

As far as individual employees who work for the city, or elected representatives... same thing as anyone else - repent and follow Jesus and accept his gospel of peace.

The city of Baltimore is composed of people, just like the country of Ukraine is.

If someone supports Baltimore using armed police to protect its citizens from violent criminals. But doesn't support the country of Ukraine using armed forces to protect its citizens from a violent and criminal invasion. Then that strikes me as hypocrisy.

One could make a similar parallel to the use of armed ICE agents to violently apprehend undocumented immigrants. Anyone who supports that is supporting violence as well. Should anyone working for ICE lay down their weapons and choose a different path?

[ken_sylvania]

That analogy works sometimes—when both sides are caught in cycles of pride or revenge. But not all wars are like that.

Some wars are more like a husband who abuses his wife and children. And if all we can say to her is, “Just submit,” or “You’re both at fault,” we’re not promoting peace—we’re compounding the harm and enabling the abuse. And sometimes abuse thrives even in our own circles—not because we approve of it, but because we’re so reluctant to name it clearly. Our desire for peace can turn into silence. Our calls for submission can be twisted into complicity. If we want to be faithful to Jesus, we need the courage to tell the truth—even when it’s uncomfortable.

I believe Caesar may bear the sword—that’s part of God’s provision for restraining evil through government (Romans 13). But as followers of Jesus, we’re called to a different path. That doesn’t mean we ignore the difference between aggression and self-defense. It means we refuse to be the ones who kill, even when others might see it as justified.

We can still grieve evil, name injustice, and stand with the oppressed. But we do so as people shaped by the cross, not the sword.

So then, considering your analogy, as people shaped by the cross and as followers of Jesus' commands, what should we recommend to the Ukrainians as a response to Putin's invasion? How can we recommend that they do anything other than what Jesus commands us to do when we are persecuted or mistreated?

Well, let’s stay with the marriage analogy.

We don’t tell the abused wife to shoot her husband. But we also don’t scold her for defending herself, and we certainly don’t act as if both are equally at fault. We acknowledge her suffering. We name the abuse clearly. We show compassion to her, not to the abuser’s excuses.

And then we ask: How can we help?
Can we offer shelter? Protection? Support?
But not by picking up a gun and shooting her husband ourselves.

In the same way, I don’t believe it’s our place as Christians to kill. But that doesn’t mean we ignore injustice, or scold the abused for defending themselves. It means we respond as people shaped by the cross—with truth, compassion, and a refusal to return evil for evil.

So you're not going to answer my question?

[Bootstrap]

So then, considering your analogy, as people shaped by the cross and as followers of Jesus' commands, what should we recommend to the Ukrainians as a response to Putin's invasion? How can we recommend that they do anything other than what Jesus commands us to do when we are persecuted or mistreated?

Well, let’s stay with the marriage analogy.

We don’t tell the abused wife to shoot her husband. But we also don’t scold her for defending herself, and we certainly don’t act as if both are equally at fault. We acknowledge her suffering. We name the abuse clearly. We show compassion to her, not to the abuser’s excuses.

And then we ask: How can we help?
Can we offer shelter? Protection? Support?
But not by picking up a gun and shooting her husband ourselves.

In the same way, I don’t believe it’s our place as Christians to kill. But that doesn’t mean we ignore injustice, or scold the abused for defending themselves. It means we respond as people shaped by the cross—with truth, compassion, and a refusal to return evil for evil.

So you're not going to answer my question?

I thought I had.

It’s not my job to tell Caesar how to bear the sword. That’s his role, not mine.

My calling isn’t to manage state violence or write battlefield ethics. It’s to bear witness to Christ—the one who refused the sword, even when it was wielded against him unjustly. I can name evil. I can stand with the afflicted.

But I don’t have to step into Caesar’s shoes to do that. And I don't have to say, for instance, that Hitler and the German Jews were just two sides of the same coin. Or that a policeman and a rapist are just two sides of the same coin.

That kind of false equivalence would make it hard to function faithfully in the role I am called to—naming evil, speaking truth, and living as someone shaped by the cross.

[JohnH]

But I don’t have to step into Caesar’s shoes to do that. And I don't have to say, for instance, that Hitler and the German Jews were just two sides of the same coin. Or that a policeman and a rapist are just two sides of the same coin.

That's not a valid analogy. A better analogy would be Hitler's Germany vs Stalin's Russia. And I think we can agree that both of those actually were two sides of the same coin.

[Bootstrap]

But I don’t have to step into Caesar’s shoes to do that. And I don't have to say, for instance, that Hitler and the German Jews were just two sides of the same coin. Or that a policeman and a rapist are just two sides of the same coin.

That's not a valid analogy. A better analogy would be Hitler's Germany vs Stalin's Russia. And I think we can agree that both of those actually were two sides of the same coin.

So you agree, then, that Hitler and the German Jews were not just two sides of the same coin?

And perhaps you also agree that on October 7th, Hamas and the civilians in the kibbutzim were not just two sides of the same coin?

It sounds like you’re acknowledging that sometimes there really are clear moral differences—that in some conflicts, we can distinguish a perpetrator from a victim. Or a policeman from a rapist.

Do you also agree that in those cases, it’s a serious problem to act like there’s no difference?
If we can’t tell the difference, why would anyone look to us when they want to know what’s moral?
And if we can’t tell the difference, how can we protect the women and children in our own church communities?

[ken_sylvania]

Well, let’s stay with the marriage analogy.

We don’t tell the abused wife to shoot her husband. But we also don’t scold her for defending herself, and we certainly don’t act as if both are equally at fault. We acknowledge her suffering. We name the abuse clearly. We show compassion to her, not to the abuser’s excuses.

And then we ask: How can we help?
Can we offer shelter? Protection? Support?
But not by picking up a gun and shooting her husband ourselves.

In the same way, I don’t believe it’s our place as Christians to kill. But that doesn’t mean we ignore injustice, or scold the abused for defending themselves. It means we respond as people shaped by the cross—with truth, compassion, and a refusal to return evil for evil.

So you're not going to answer my question?

I thought I had.

It’s not my job to tell Caesar how to bear the sword. That’s his role, not mine.

My calling isn’t to manage state violence or write battlefield ethics. It’s to bear witness to Christ—the one who refused the sword, even when it was wielded against him unjustly. I can name evil. I can stand with the afflicted.

But I don’t have to step into Caesar’s shoes to do that. And I don't have to say, for instance, that Hitler and the German Jews were just two sides of the same coin. Or that a policeman and a rapist are just two sides of the same coin.

That kind of false equivalence would make it hard to function faithfully in the role I am called to—naming evil, speaking truth, and living as someone shaped by the cross.

I asked two questions.
#1 - "What should we recommend to the Ukrainians as a response to Putin's invasion?" I think I hear you saying that it's not your place to recommend to the Ukrainians how to respond. If that's what you're saying, it's not an answer to the question, it's a disagreement as to whether the question is appropriate.

#2 - "How can we recommend that the Ukrainians do anything other than what Jesus commands...?" To the extent your comment could possibly be construed as an answer to this question, it seems to say that because the powers that be are ordained of God, we as Christians have no right to expect Christ's commands to apply to Caesar and his minions.

You say if a wife is abused, we shouldn't scold her if she defends herself. You say we shouldn't recommend that she kill her husband, and we shouldn't kill her husband for her, but your answer certainly seems to suggest that we shouldn't criticize her for killing her husband should she choose to do so. That kind of a position is, to me, impossible to square with what Jesus taught. Jesus taught very clearly that we shouldn't defend ourselves with violence, so a wife who kills her husband is directly and willfully violating Jesus' commands, and Jesus said there is no other way to eternal life except by following Him.