Living with different views on voting

[Bootstrap]

The Bible makes it pretty clear not to kill people.

I agree. That's what Jesus teaches. (The OT is a little more complicated here ....)

I don’t think choosing a military chieftain who commands armies and orders extrajudicial assassinations is a good way to follow Jesus telling us not to kill people.

And that's a reasonable application, but it's not the only reasonable application. And that part is not what the Bible says, it does not have the same authority.

For instance, as an ambassador of the Kingdom of God, I might try to do what ambassadors do, convince other governments to do something a little different, such as kill fewer people, or avoid rampant injustice. I don't think the Bible tells me to do that, but it does show Paul trying to convince government.

I also don’t think I’ll be able to convince you of this.

And we can't wrestle each other into submission. Which is what this thread is about - how do we live with the fact that we have different applications?

[Josh]

Part of the legacy of Anabaptism is we don’t believe in “Living with different views in voting”, “different views on military service”, “carrying guns for self defence” and so forth. We don’t believe in some kind of pluralism where everyone just does what is right in their own eyes.

To put it into brass tacks, I could never be a member in a church where I felt other members were apostate and the larger denomination was.

[GaryK]

And we can't wrestle each other into submission. Which is what this thread is about - how do we live with the fact that we have different applications?

Are you interested in attempting to find the truth about this issue? What would you say is the truth about the voting issue? I'll be happy to lay out what I believe the truth is regarding this issue, if you are open to that.

I brought this over from the NPR/Truth thread because there you seem to imply that truth can be discovered on matters of disagreement.

So we really do need ways to discuss things with people who disagree with us. Ways that challenge our own thinking, peeling away the things that keep us from seeing the truth.

What truth are you referring to in the above statement?

[Sudsy]

Does anyone here believe that to vote or not to vote to be a sin issue ? And if it is a sin issue, if someone makes the wrong choice will they lose their salvation over it ? If it is not regarded as a salvation issue, is it a personal conviction issue ? If it is a personal conviction issue should we be trying to convince other believers that our conviction must be their conviction ?

Seems to me this gets into what Romans 14 is talking about with regard to us judging each other's convictions and we are told in this text not to do that. Instead whether I vote or not vote is probably something this text says to keep to myself.

One of my observations, not to try to get agreement , is that ever since the scriptures have been made accessible to the masses (about a century ago) that those who claim to be Christians, are more in disagreement about what these scriptures say and instruct us to live than ever before. This having the scriptures at anyone's finger tips has not resulted in a oneness of belief but rather has split Christianity more than it ever was in the past and it seems that some groups are more into splitting than others. Sometimes it can be over an issue as simple as voting.

So if I chose to vote or not, it is a matter of personal conviction and I best not try to push my convictions on others or I will be sinning to what Romans 14 is saying to do. If it really concerns me of other's choice, I can take them to the Lord in prayer. Thats what I am choising to go with as I believe what I should or should not do is primarily a matter of what the Holy Spirit living within guides me to follow.

[ken_sylvania]

Is compliance or lack of compliance with Romans 14 a sin issue? Is it something a person will lose their salvation over?

[Sudsy]

Is compliance or lack of compliance with Romans 14 a sin issue? Is it something a person will lose their salvation over?

My personal conviction is that it could be considered a sin issue if we are showing 'contempt' towards another Christian regarding their conviction. Will it adversly affect one's salvation ? Imo, 'no' as my salvation is not based on my perfect performance as a Christ follower but rather on what Jesus did to save me and His perfection.

I think the main point of Romans 14 is that we all as individuals will give an account of ourselves to God and so it reads 'therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another'.

[Bootstrap]

Are you interested in attempting to find the truth about this issue? What would you say is the truth about the voting issue? I'll be happy to lay out what I believe the truth is regarding this issue, if you are open to that.

Absolutely. And there's a thread specifically for that purpose - here's the best place to make that argument:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

And I would ask the question in the reverse - is everyone else interested in attempting to know the truth on this issue? Let's explore Scripture over there, realizing that we are starting from very different perspectives.

I brought this over from the NPR/Truth thread because there you seem to imply that truth can be discovered on matters of disagreement.

So we really do need ways to discuss things with people who disagree with us. Ways that challenge our own thinking, peeling away the things that keep us from seeing the truth.

That's exactly what the above thread is for.

But in this thread, I think we have to start from the perspective that there is real disagreement, this is disputed among Christians who are eagerly seeking to Seek First the Kingdom of God and apply the Bible to their lives.

Let me confront an elephant in the room. I think that some plain Anabaptists believe that they are the better Christians, and that their applications of Scripture prove that. They believe - and sometimes teach - that if you really want to follow Jesus, you will do it their way, and by doing it their way (in obedience to Jesus), you will come to see that it is the truth. If I don't do it their way, that's proof that I really don't want to know the truth - even if this is something they have added to Scripture, rather than something found in Scripture. And I actually believe that there are other approaches that are quite faithful to Scripture.

And I think some of those things are actually plain Anabaptist applications that are no more Scriptural than other applications. They are not taken directly from Scripture, there is a fair amount of human reasoning to justify these applications. Is that Holy Spirit led reasoning? Does it help people walk more faithfully? Quite possibly - for some. But I'm not at all convinced that this is the only way to be faithful to Scripture.

To me, if you are adding new requirements to Scripture and giving the same authority to them that you give to Scripture ... well, that's a lot like what Jesus accused the Pharisees of doing with their "traditions of men". And to me, it's pretty obvious that these are plain Anabaptist traditions that are strongly linked to your identity. That's a time to be careful.

FWIW, when Jesus calls out the Scribes and the Pharisees, I think I have other things to be careful about. I'm more of a Scribe - a Bible geek - than a Pharisee. There are cautions for both of these groups of Christians.

[Soloist]

But in this thread, I think we have to start from the perspective that there is real disagreement, this is disputed among Christians who are eagerly seeking to Seek First the Kingdom of God and apply the Bible to their lives.

I think you have to start from the perspective that there’s real disagreement on how to talk to each other… otherwise, why do some of you guys keep going around in circles on the same topics? Never getting anywhere.
One side tries to lay down specific ground rules, the other side tries to lay down their ground rules. Neither side wants to do with the other side wants to do…. Why are we even worried about whether or not there’s this agreement over some issue in Christianity when we can’t even agree on how to disagree.
Why don’t you type in cute cat videos on YouTube and enjoy the rest of your afternoon.
I don’t like cats so this advice doesn’t apply to me.

[Josh]

Let me confront an elephant in the room. I think that some plain Anabaptists believe that they are the better Christians, and that their applications of Scripture prove that. They believe - and sometimes teach - that if you really want to follow Jesus, you will do it their way, and by doing it their way (in obedience to Jesus), you will come to see that it is the truth.

I don’t think I’m a better Christian than other Christians, including ones in worldly or apostate churches.

I do think my congregation’s practice is better than, say, the Episcopalian church downtown or the United Methodist church up the street (the only one left that didn’t switch to Global Methodist). I’m not being proud or arrogant when I say that.

My great aunt was a faithful United Methodist dating back to when the denomination was called other things and I think she led a more godly and Christian life than I have, or do. That’s me just calling it like I see it.

Unfortunately I think the UMC is in apostasy now though and is in danger of leading many astray. I don’t think my church is apostate.

I do think my church applies the scriptures better than Mennonite Church USA does. John Holdeman thought so back in 1859, mostly over issues of wild youth and winking on fornication and other ungodliness in the youth and then using out of wedlock pregnancies as a quick wedge to push young people to become church members and have a church wedding. I think he was right about that.

In the present day, I think MC USA and most of its congregations have fallen into apostasy. I respect some, like Virginia Conference churches who have taken a stand against some of this apostasy.

Boot, I really don’t know where you want us to go with this. My congregation is composed of a mix of Russian Mennonite background people with 4th cousins in Central District-type churches (or at least their parents in one), Swiss Brethren background people with 4th cousins in ex-conservative churches, MC USA, or no church at all, and then people from the world with relatives in diverse settings - again, often no church at all. We don’t feel the other side of things would be better and have difficulty respecting it at all. How are we supposed to?

[JayP]

I am amazed at how this conversation can go on. If you believe voting is okay, there is nothing wrong with sharing your view. Understand, it is no different than sharing your view on anything. I believe abortion is wrong. I will share that view in the hopes of convincing people who disagree. Now, if I am doing so ina way inconsistent with how a Christian should behave that is wrong.

The voting issue is no different. If I thought it important (and I do not) maybe I would share a thought with my Eastern friends that do not vote. But harping o it, badgering them, etc. is simply wrong.

While I oppose abortion I would not bomb a clinic. What is so hard? What makes this issue any different?