mike wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:52 pm
Praxis+Theodicy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:21 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:09 pm
It should also be noted that in medieval Europe Jews were largely prohibited from owning property and participating in craft guilds (carpentry, masonry, textile making, etc.). And so were prohibited from farming and most ordinary trades that involved working with their hands unless they converted to Christianity. Meaning finance and trade (shop keeping) were the few means of making a living that were available to them.
The entirety of laws for Jewish people as opposed to "proper" citizens in medieval Christendom deserves it's own thread. To your point, Jews often had no real way to live except through lending at interest, often with others' money.
I would like to know what your opinion is, based on your view that Jesus forbad charging interest, of how loaning money (both as a borrower and lender) should look like in Christian society today.
Clarifying "Christian Society"
I'm not sure how exactly to answer this question. I'm opposed to the concept of a "Christian society" as that phrase would be commonly understood. A "society" meaning a group of people who freewillingly join together
from common interests and
for common goals would more or less describe a church, which is the furthest I want to extend my arguments.
But the normal understanding of "a Christian society" is not a church, but the larger group of people collected in a geographical region and subject to state (secular) laws. Instead of a society entered into freewillingly, one is subject to such a society by dint of living within its geographical borders. A "Christian society" meaning "Christendom" essentially. I don't want to go there.
My Attempt to Clarify My Position
I hope I'm clarifying and not muddying the waters more, but I see usury the same way I see violence (in fact, Jesus addresses both lending and refraining from violence in Luke 6 back-to-back). I think a "society" (that is, a geographical area with a secular national identity of some sort) needs to use violence in the form of military and police. But this admission doesn't naturally lead me to conclude that an individual follower of Christ may then join the ranks of this sanctioned violence, nor should a church develop it's own sort of sanctioned violence. However, I don't think ots always wrong for a Christian to
make use of said police force to resolve crimes or to call for protection.
Similarly, I think many societies get to the point where charging interest on loans can be argued as "necessary" for that society in the same way that military conquest is "necessary". But, same as with violence, I don't think an individual Christ follower or a church may engage in lending for a profit (not even "at the rate of interest"). Similar to "making use of a police force" for protection, I don't think it's wrong for a Christian to take a mortgage with interest payments. I just don't think the Christian should be the one
charging interest on anyone else.
I think Jesus said "lend without expecting anything in return, even to enemies." I think a follower of Christ ought to be able to assess what they "own" and honestly say "do I
need this thing? Can I survive without it? If my brother needs it, can I lend it to him and, in my heart, truly let it go and not expect to get it back?" I think our true stance as Christians is that we are
stewards of material wealth, never truly "owners" of anything. We should be able to see a need, and address that need by giving what we have to them. A simple prayer helps: "God, you have allowed me to be the steward of this for some time now. I now see a place where it is needed so much more than it is by me. Thank you for the chance to steward this money/object one last time by allowing it to pass into the hands of this person who truly needs it more than I."
Sure, I'll bite and talk about a "Christian society"
A thought experiment "Christian society" or "Christian economy" would work by constantly assessing two questions:
(1) "Do I have something I don't need?"
(2) "Do I need something I don't have?"
If and when the second person assess their need ("I need a tractor and I don't have it") and the first person assess the items under their stewardship (I have a tractor I'm not using"), then wealth (in this case, the tractor) passes to where its needed, like water flowing to the lowest point. The first person lends the tractor to the second person and truly, in their heart, releases the idea that it is "mine".
It's absurd to imagine this happening on a "societal" level, but I think it can and should happen on a church level (the only practical definition of a "Christian society" I'll accept is a local church body). At the very least, individual Christians ought to be more free and joyful at opportunities to give what they don't need to someone who needs what they don't have.
Practical Examples (Of an Individual Christ Follower, not of a "Society"
I don't want to toot my own horn, but to show you that it's not impossible or even impractical, my wife and I have made active strides to put this into practice. When we were convicted to cut down to one car instead of two, I put it up for sale, but when a brother in Christ posted on facebook that he needed a car, I realized the Lord was showing me a simple truth: "You've discovered that you have something you don't need, and that same thing is what your brother needs but he does not have. You know what I would do." We ended up selling it to him with the intention of giving it to him. We prayed over the decision and tore up the check he gave us to pay for the car.
A second example is when we took time off of our lives to explore anabaptist communities for 6 months. I was convicted that it would be less than ideal for our house to go unused (lots of people are homeless), but I also didn't want to charge anyone rent to live their, profiting off their need by letting then "use" something that really didn't cost me anything to give them. But finding someone to move in had a lot of barriers. The
day before we left our next door neighbor asked us if we knew any landlords who would take month-to-month. This was in 2021, when rental prices were through the roof and it was impossible to find anything without a long lease. Our neighbors were tearing down their tiny house to build a new one in its place for their growing family, and needed a roof over their heads in the meantime. We were thrilled that the Lord put this circumstance in our lap as an answer to prayer. We told then they can stay in our house as long as they need to, no rent. They paid the utilities that they used each month they were there, nothing extra. Although we didn't know how long we'd be gone or how long they'd need a house, it just happened (the Lord made it happen) that it worked out for both of us. We were gone about 6-7 months, and they stayed there for about 6 months until they moved into another house they bought. The money they saved allowed them to put a down payment on a new house they could fit into, and we had the assurance of knowing that we weren't being neglectful stewards of a house left empty while so many go without.
I don't want to use these examples to demand that everyone act this way (these circumstances are all specific), I merely want to show that it is possible and practical to work towards actually putting the teachings of Jesus into real practice. We did our best to "lend, expecting nothing in return". I do want to note that both times, those we lent to were Christian's (neither from our church, but both of them were outspoken about their faith), so I will humbly admit that Jesus' other command (to act this way towards enemies/outsiders) has not been a challenge we've overcome just yet. But God has been faithful to challenge us in ways that allow us to be faithful to His Word in ways I, personally, would have thought impossible or impractical (I felt the same way about violence before discovering the anabaptist tradition).