Ephesians 5: "Shameful even to speak"

[QuietlyListening]

For one I would take the term Pharisee off the table- it becomes very contentious as we can see just in this thread. And instead of looking at how others are acting, what they are saying we need to examine ourselves. It is easy to say someone is pointing out sin when they have sin they are ignoring and not see our own sin

I do see where the term Pharisee for hypocritical believers comes from- you have the Pharisee in the temple praying how thankful he is not like that sinner, that tax collector and the tax collector seeing his sin and asking for mercy.
But for the most part when we are looking at others and saying how sinful they are, that is not the situation.

But as believers, we need to live lives that show God's love and be truthful but we can be harsh and say you are sinning and walk away or we can try to get to know the person/s and as we establish a relationship we can speak truth into their lives.
But to just go to people living in obvious sin and say- you're a sinner this is what the Bible says is not going to do much 99.9% of the time. They don't know truth, they don't know God.

As for those who call themselves Christians and are living in sin- whatever the sin- we need to again speak truth but with love and try to have a relationship with them so that we can show them truth, the love of God and hopefully they can see Christ in our lives.

We can get so hung up on terms and what we call people who do this and that we forget the big picture and that is first we need to be in a relationship with our Lord and living out that relationship daily.
Then we need to be reaching out to others around us as God puts them in our lives and speak truth yes but truth that is spoken in love- speaking in condemnation will never reach the other person - it may make us feel good that we spoke truth but that is about it.

I love the way the one pastor reached out to Rosaria Butterfield- she was a lesbian atheist and I think he wrote some letters to her and they began communicating and he just kept asking her questions. She became a believer and left the lesbian lifestyle. She is married and a pastor's wife.

[Szdfan]

Which is why I said followers of Jesus. Many of the Jews followed Jesus before He died and before His followers were called Christians.

I figured you were doing that, but I'm not sure the text is making the distinction you are. If the Pharisees have absolutely nothing to do with the followers of Jesus, why include them in the text? If they're irrelevant, than why are they there?

I think that on one level, the Pharisees serve as a negative example or a warning of what zealous faith without grace looks like. The Scriptures aren't just the story of the faithfulness of God's people, they are also the story where God's people go wrong.

The Pharisees believed that Israel was in a special convenant relationship with God and in following the Law. Yet in their zeal, they missed the work that God was doing right in front of them. I think this is very relevant to faith today.

I'm not sure what text you are referring to.

The Gospels.

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure there view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. Since anyone can use whatever words they want to describe whatever they want, then words don't have any meaning at all.

Again, it's a question of testing the spirits. Does the criticism name or reflect a reality of what's going on?

[GaryK]

I figured you were doing that, but I'm not sure the text is making the distinction you are. If the Pharisees have absolutely nothing to do with the followers of Jesus, why include them in the text? If they're irrelevant, than why are they there?

I think that on one level, the Pharisees serve as a negative example or a warning of what zealous faith without grace looks like. The Scriptures aren't just the story of the faithfulness of God's people, they are also the story where God's people go wrong.

The Pharisees believed that Israel was in a special convenant relationship with God and in following the Law. Yet in their zeal, they missed the work that God was doing right in front of them. I think this is very relevant to faith today.

I'm not sure what text you are referring to.

The Gospels.

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure there view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. Since anyone can use whatever words they want to describe whatever they want, then words don't have any meaning at all.

Again, it's a question of testing the spirits. Does the criticism name or reflect a reality of what's going on?

Basically I'm wondering what a Pharisee is in our day?

[RZehr]

I figured you were doing that, but I'm not sure the text is making the distinction you are. If the Pharisees have absolutely nothing to do with the followers of Jesus, why include them in the text? If they're irrelevant, than why are they there?

I think that on one level, the Pharisees serve as a negative example or a warning of what zealous faith without grace looks like. The Scriptures aren't just the story of the faithfulness of God's people, they are also the story where God's people go wrong.

The Pharisees believed that Israel was in a special convenant relationship with God and in following the Law. Yet in their zeal, they missed the work that God was doing right in front of them. I think this is very relevant to faith today.

I'm not sure what text you are referring to.

The Gospels.

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure there view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. Since anyone can use whatever words they want to describe whatever they want, then words don't have any meaning at all.

Again, it's a question of testing the spirits. Does the criticism name or reflect a reality of what's going on?

Words have meanings? Interesting.

[Josh]

Basically I'm wondering what a Pharisee is in our day?

There aren't any. The sect of the Pharisees went extinct a long time ago.

It's sort of like asking where the modern-day Sadduceees or Essenes are. The answer is: there aren't any.

[RZehr]

I'm not sure what text you are referring to.

The Gospels.

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure there view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Honestly, I don't understand this argument. Since anyone can use whatever words they want to describe whatever they want, then words don't have any meaning at all.

Again, it's a question of testing the spirits. Does the criticism name or reflect a reality of what's going on?

Basically I'm wondering what a Pharisee is in our day?

Since calling someone today a Pharisee is derogatory, the person calling them that is placing themselves in a better category than the person they are calling a Pharisee.
And thereby themselves becoming similar to the historical Pharisee.

[Bootstrap]

Since calling someone today a Pharisee is derogatory ...

If this really were such a concept core to Christianity, it would have merited a mention at least once. Instead, calling someone a “Pharisee” is usually a rhetorical device to come up with an excuse to disobey the New Testament.

I don't think that's what I'm doing - I didn't call anyone a Pharisee, I pointed to the things Jesus accuses the Pharisees of in Matthew 23. Here's something I notice: when I discuss these things that Jesus calls sin, some people take offense, and act like I am pointing fingers at specific people and calling them Pharisees. I am not.

It's no different from discussing other things that the Bible calls sin. Name calling and pointing fingers isn't helpful, but talking about what the Bible calls sinful behavior is very important. I think you can take every one of the points made in Matthew 23 and trace them through the rest of the New Testament. Same goes for some of the points Jesus makes in the Sermon on the Mount.

So perhaps instead of taking offense, we can discuss what Jesus is talking about here? I think we probably agree that the words of Jesus apply to Christians today.

[Bootstrap]

I love the way the one pastor reached out to Rosaria Butterfield- she was a lesbian atheist and I think he wrote some letters to her and they began communicating and he just kept asking her questions. She became a believer and left the lesbian lifestyle. She is married and a pastor's wife.

Yes, I really like her. She's local. I haven't met her, but I know a handful of people who have met her.

https://rosariabutterfield.com/

[Josh]

I don't think that's what I'm doing - I didn't call anyone a Pharisee, I pointed to the things Jesus accuses the Pharisees of in Matthew 23. Here's something I notice: when I discuss these things that Jesus calls sin, some people take offense, and act like I am pointing fingers at specific people and calling them Pharisees. I am not.

I don't think of you as someone who knee-jerk calls people Pharisees as soon as someone else suggests something they don't like. That is, however, a very common behaviour in certain parts of christendom (and is indeed taught from the pulpit).

So perhaps instead of taking offense, we can discuss what Jesus is talking about here? I think we probably agree that the words of Jesus apply to Christians today.

They do apply, but there aren't any Pharisees today to apply them to.

My position is that the modern-day evangelical notion that trying to have any structure and boundaries for Christian living at all is "Phariseeism" is not a concept actually found in the Bible. Perhaps I face more often than some people do because it is a very common accusation levelled by other evangelical types of Christians against visibly plain people.

[Bootstrap]

I don't think that's what I'm doing - I didn't call anyone a Pharisee, I pointed to the things Jesus accuses the Pharisees of in Matthew 23. Here's something I notice: when I discuss these things that Jesus calls sin, some people take offense, and act like I am pointing fingers at specific people and calling them Pharisees. I am not.

I don't think of you as someone who knee-jerk calls people Pharisees as soon as someone else suggests something they don't like.

Show me one place where I call someone a Pharisee and we can discuss it. But I don't think it's even worth responding to vague accusations that do not point to specific posts. That's one of the things that drags these discussions down.

I see myself as someone who is very vocal about the need to avoid the sins that Jesus associated with Pharisees. I don't see myself as a name caller.