Three types of Anabaptists - which one are you? [POLL]

[Josh]

Women are pretty much universally less conservative than men across every ethnic and religious group. Whether you are talking about Catholics, evangelicals, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, or whatever.

I don't have an opinion about this in respect to modern societies, but in the tribal societies to which I have been exposed, the women are by far the more traditional force in the culture and society. Part of this may be because in isolated societies such as the Banawa (where we lived), the women have very little contact with the outside culture. For instance, before we moved in and my wife began selling fabric, the MEN always picked it out for them. For the first time, the women could choose their own fabric designs and colors. The women are the carriers of the traditional medicine practices. It is largely the women who insist that traditional ceremonies are carried out in the proper way. (At the same time, there were one or two of the women who tended to be willing to break the cultural mores, such as that some would come talk to me, especially when I was there alone for a few days. But don't take this wrong - there was no perception of any immoral intent involved - they talked to me because they needed medicines or some other assistance. But the point is that the culture would have directed them to pass the message or request on through their husband, a brother, or another close male relative.)

Sure, but what are the equivalent issues translated to the modern world?

Is a modern woman concerned primarily about home and family going to be more interested in say: healthcare, education, family leave, etc. which are traditionally liberal issues? Or is she going to be more concerned about gun rights, immigration, government regulation, etc. which are traditionally more conservative issues?

Modern world? The people Neto is talking about still exist in the present “modern” world!

The women I know who are traditional minded are mostly concerned about government “control”: they’re worried the government will take over their schools, force their kids to get vaccinated, stuff like that. If their husband has a business they are usually upset with the amount of regulation and taxes his business has to deal with. (Stay at home wives often do the bookkeeping, tax filings, various regulatory filings required for truckers, etc.)

[Neto]

Women are pretty much universally less conservative than men across every ethnic and religious group. Whether you are talking about Catholics, evangelicals, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, or whatever.

I don't have an opinion about this in respect to modern societies, but in the tribal societies to which I have been exposed, the women are by far the more traditional force in the culture and society. Part of this may be because in isolated societies such as the Banawa (where we lived), the women have very little contact with the outside culture. For instance, before we moved in and my wife began selling fabric, the MEN always picked it out for them. For the first time, the women could choose their own fabric designs and colors. The women are the carriers of the traditional medicine practices. It is largely the women who insist that traditional ceremonies are carried out in the proper way. (At the same time, there were one or two of the women who tended to be willing to break the cultural mores, such as that some would come talk to me, especially when I was there alone for a few days. But don't take this wrong - there was no perception of any immoral intent involved - they talked to me because they needed medicines or some other assistance. But the point is that the culture would have directed them to pass the message or request on through their husband, a brother, or another close male relative.)

Sure, but what are the equivalent issues translated to the modern world?

Is a modern woman concerned primarily about home and family going to be more interested in say: healthcare, education, family leave, etc. which are traditionally liberal issues? Or is she going to be more concerned about gun rights, immigration, government regulation, etc. which are traditionally more conservative issues?

OK. I get you now. I don't know about those political issues. I thought you were talking about general morality and openness to cultural change. These political issues (in your list) have been tagged as being 'conservative' or 'liberal', but that is more fluid than the things I was thinking about.

[I wouldn't even have 'known' that healthcare was a 'liberal' issue, and that immigration was a conservative issue. I personally became more concerned about immigration rights during a time when most people would have classified me as being 'liberal'. Now you might say that you meant 'preventing immigration' as a conservative issue, but my sense is that the so-called 'conservatives' are not so concerned with preventing immigration, as they are with assuring that immigration is done legally. Ask a person who went through all of the hoops to immigrate legally about how they feel regarding amnesty for illegal residents and being given legal status. A good friend of ours gave some pretty strong push back when I suggested that illegals should be given a document that would allow them to renter the country legally, after they have gone out, so as to enter legally. In her family, her mother came to the States first (legally), and the children were left in their home country for another 5 years, until she could bring them in legally. The woman I was speaking to was 15 at the time her mother left to go to the States. Is this just a spiteful attitude? I don't know that there is absolutely none of that involved, but that's not how I heard her.]

[Ken]

I don't have an opinion about this in respect to modern societies, but in the tribal societies to which I have been exposed, the women are by far the more traditional force in the culture and society. Part of this may be because in isolated societies such as the Banawa (where we lived), the women have very little contact with the outside culture. For instance, before we moved in and my wife began selling fabric, the MEN always picked it out for them. For the first time, the women could choose their own fabric designs and colors. The women are the carriers of the traditional medicine practices. It is largely the women who insist that traditional ceremonies are carried out in the proper way. (At the same time, there were one or two of the women who tended to be willing to break the cultural mores, such as that some would come talk to me, especially when I was there alone for a few days. But don't take this wrong - there was no perception of any immoral intent involved - they talked to me because they needed medicines or some other assistance. But the point is that the culture would have directed them to pass the message or request on through their husband, a brother, or another close male relative.)

Sure, but what are the equivalent issues translated to the modern world?

Is a modern woman concerned primarily about home and family going to be more interested in say: healthcare, education, family leave, etc. which are traditionally liberal issues? Or is she going to be more concerned about gun rights, immigration, government regulation, etc. which are traditionally more conservative issues?

OK. I get you now. I don't know about those political issues. I thought you were talking about general morality and openness to cultural change. These political issues (in your list) have been tagged as being 'conservative' or 'liberal', but that is more fluid than the things I was thinking about.

[I wouldn't even have 'known' that healthcare was a 'liberal' issue, and that immigration was a conservative issue. I personally became more concerned about immigration rights during a time when most people would have classified me as being 'liberal'. Now you might say that you meant 'preventing immigration' as a conservative issue, but my sense is that the so-called 'conservatives' are not so concerned with preventing immigration, as they are with assuring that immigration is done legally. Ask a person who went through all of the hoops to immigrate legally about how they feel regarding amnesty for illegal residents and being given legal status. A good friend of ours gave some pretty strong push back when I suggested that illegals should be given a document that would allow them to renter the country legally, after they have gone out, so as to enter legally. In her family, her mother came to the States first (legally), and the children were left in their home country for another 5 years, until she could bring them in legally. The woman I was speaking to was 15 at the time her mother left to go to the States. Is this just a spiteful attitude? I don't know that there is absolutely none of that involved, but that's not how I heard her.]

In the the past several elections, Democrats have run on healthcare (Medicare for all, ACA etc.) and Republicans have run on immigration (build the wall, migrant caravans, MS-14 in the streets, etc.)

My larger point is that I don't think it is a good thing for politics and religion to mix, especially to the extent that it does today where the mixing isn't over specific issues that might be of relevance to a particular religious group, but blind partisanship in favor of one party or the other. We can argue about whether women are more or less conservative then men. They might well be more conservative from an Edmund Burke traditionalist meaning of the term "conservative" But here in the US in the context of 21st Century electoral politics, women most definitely VOTE less conservatively then men across every ethnic, racial, and religious group.

I know plenty of people who grew up in evangelical churches who have walked away due to the increased politicization in recent years and the blind allegiance to one particular party. Likewise, people are walking away from more liberal churches due to politicization there as well. I think nothing good comes of this sorting of religious groups along political lines. I belong to other organizations and groups in which politics is frankly not much of an issue at all. At work, local civics groups where I sometimes volunteer. No one sorts people based on politics when I'm out doing trail maintenance at a local park, or working at a food bank, or anything else like that. But in church (at least some churches) it is getting increasingly difficult to participate and be active if your politics are out of step with the group. I don't think it used to be like that, at least not to the extent that it is today.

So swinging back up to the poll at the top of this thread. I frankly don't think that politics should be much of a divider at all between different types of Anabaptists. Or different types of Christians generally.

[Ernie]

There are thousands of Amish (maybe tens of thousands) who have strong, conservative political views.

Yes, and I'm sure there are many who don't have strong conservative political views, at least on hot button conservative issues like gun control and immigration. And many more who aren't particularly engaged in politics.

The larger point I would make is that for every ethnic Christian group like the Amish or various flavors of Mennonites in which membership is largely inherited, you no doubt have a wide range of political views.

When you say flavors of Mennonites, are you including non-Plain Anabaptist churches and constituencies?

Plain Anabaptists are either politically conservative or third way. There are a very few who are politically progressive and most of them won't be Plain ten years from now.

[Ken]

There are thousands of Amish (maybe tens of thousands) who have strong, conservative political views.

Yes, and I'm sure there are many who don't have strong conservative political views, at least on hot button conservative issues like gun control and immigration. And many more who aren't particularly engaged in politics.

The larger point I would make is that for every ethnic Christian group like the Amish or various flavors of Mennonites in which membership is largely inherited, you no doubt have a wide range of political views.

When you say flavors of Mennonites, are you including non-Plain Anabaptist churches and constituencies?

Plain Anabaptists are either politically conservative or third way. There are a very few who are politically progressive and most of them won't be Plain ten years from now.

Referencing the definition at the top of the thread, if you were to go to a typical Amish church and and ask them how important to them each of these issues is. What do you think the answer would be?

• Personally non-resistant, but supportive of second amendment rights,
• Belief in society's need for a strong police/military
• Sympathetic to patriotism and nationalism
• Want robust immigration controls

I would be disappointed if any of those issues were identified as political priorities for the Amish. Especially support for the military given that the US military budget is larger than the next 10 countries combined.

On the other hand, if you asked them if they are interested in:

• Preservation of rural land from encroaching suburban and industrial development
• Clean air and clean water
• Support for small scale agriculture and agricultural markets and opposition to big corporate ag monopolies
• Support for clean alternative energy (wind, solar, geothermal) over coal

I expect at least *some* would be interested in government pursuing those goals.

I don't think groups like the Amish are necessarily served by either political party exclusively, but are more likely to benefit from a mix of different policies coming from both directions. And probably staying out of political fights that don't directly affect them.

[Valerie]

Yes, and I'm sure there are many who don't have strong conservative political views, at least on hot button conservative issues like gun control and immigration. And many more who aren't particularly engaged in politics.

The larger point I would make is that for every ethnic Christian group like the Amish or various flavors of Mennonites in which membership is largely inherited, you no doubt have a wide range of political views.

When you say flavors of Mennonites, are you including non-Plain Anabaptist churches and constituencies?

Plain Anabaptists are either politically conservative or third way. There are a very few who are politically progressive and most of them won't be Plain ten years from now.

Referencing the definition at the top of the thread, if you were to go to a typical Amish church and and ask them how important to them each of these issues is. What do you think the answer would be?

• Personally non-resistant, but supportive of second amendment rights,
• Belief in society's need for a strong police/military
• Sympathetic to patriotism and nationalism
• Want robust immigration controls

I would be disappointed if any of those issues were identified as political priorities for the Amish. Especially support for the military given that the US military budget is larger than the next 10 countries combined.

On the other hand, if you asked them if they are interested in:

• Preservation of rural land from encroaching suburban and industrial development
• Clean air and clean water
• Support for small scale agriculture and agricultural markets and opposition to big corporate ag monopolies
• Support for clean alternative energy (wind, solar, geothermal) over coal

I expect at least *some* would be interested in government pursuing those goals.

I don't think groups like the Amish are necessarily served by either political party exclusively, but are more likely to benefit from a mix of different policies coming from both directions. And probably staying out of political fights that don't directly affect them.

The Amish in our vicinity are strongly supportive of Republicans as the party that supported some of their Biblical priorities which affects the surrounding culture. Example, I was told that they came out to vote when the marriage amendment was on the ballot in OH that certain bishops permitted them to vote. I'm not sure how widespread that was in Ohio I just heard of it at a campaign meeting when Bush was running. Also because of the Republicans general position on abortion, they tend to support the Republican party as their is a hope for roe v Wade to be overturned. And of course the plane out in a Baptist tend to always keep their persecuted heritage in mind so they tend to see the writing on the wall of what may be coming. To them, the left seems the most threatening to their religious freedom. I'm just sharing things I've heard from those in the community. Not to mention it would be concerning for them and was that a woman might be president of the United States- when first visiting Holmes county for example I was surprised how interested they are in these kinds of things, but I learned to understand why and appreciate it

[Ernie]

Referencing the definition at the top of the thread, if you were to go to a typical Amish church and and ask them how important to them each of these issues is. What do you think the answer would be?

• Personally non-resistant, but supportive of second amendment rights,
• Belief in society's need for a strong police/military
• Sympathetic to patriotism and nationalism
• Want robust immigration controls

I would be disappointed if any of those issues were identified as political priorities for the Amish. Especially support for the military given that the US military budget is larger than the next 10 countries combined.

On the other hand, if you asked them if they are interested in:

• Preservation of rural land from encroaching suburban and industrial development
• Clean air and clean water
• Support for small scale agriculture and agricultural markets and opposition to big corporate ag monopolies
• Support for clean alternative energy (wind, solar, geothermal) over coal

I expect at least *some* would be interested in government pursuing those goals.

I don't think groups like the Amish are necessarily served by either political party exclusively, but are more likely to benefit from a mix of different policies coming from both directions. And probably staying out of political fights that don't directly affect them.

Some Amish support both of your lists. Others support the latter. (Amish don't use the grid, so many look for alternative energy for their own farm or business and a coal plant is too cost prohibitive.)
I can't say what percentage support both lists, and which support only the latter.

[Ken]

Some Amish support both of your lists. Others support the latter. (Amish don't use the grid, so many look for alternative energy for their own farm or business and a coal plant is too cost prohibitive.)
I can't say what percentage support both lists, and which support only the latter.

The point about coal was being downstream of big coal fired plants that put out particulate pollution. I don't know if that is an issue in most Amish communities but I expect there are places in the upper midwest where rural Amish areas are affected by coal fired pollution and would benefit from cleaner air. Even if they, themselves, don't use electricity. No one wants their kids getting asthma or other respiratory diseases, especially for cheap electricity that you don't even use.

The larger point is that I think we link politics and religion at our peril. Especially so in the Anabaptist world which comes from a two kingdom theology. I'm not one who thinks Christians should not vote. But I do think churches should avoid political entanglements to the extent possible, both on the right and on the left. It is possible to break bread and commune with people that you disagree with politically. And even enjoy their company. We do it all the time within my large extended family which is most definitely conservative-leaning if you were to do a head count. But has individuals who range from the very left to the very right. Yet we all get along and enjoy each other's company. Churches should be the same.

If, as Valerie says, the Amish in places like Holmes County are becoming increasingly politicized and politically active I don't think that is necessarily a good thing. I don't live anywhere near that area so I can't comment. but I don't think it has always been that way. I spent a lot of my younger life living in the Amish part of central Pennsylvania in the 1970s and early 1980s and I don't recall the Amish being even slightly political back then. So what she describes feels like a change.

[Neto]

re: coal: I can see how anyone, regardless of how they feel about how the electric power they use in their home or business is generated/produced, will oppose a plant being put in their own area. People all send trash to the dump, but they don't want a land-fill next to their farm, or nearby. (Don't get me started on the rendering plant....) And the people here in Holmes County who use 'alternative fuels" to generate heat in the winter - they may be using coal, or even burning plastics or rubber in their out-door furnaces, but they wouldn't want a huge generation plant close by burning that stuff. (I know of a factory that fires their out-door furnace with the scrap from the vinyl lumber they use to build their out-door furniture products. They get more "value" out of that than they would by selling it for recycling, so they burn it.) What I'm saying, I guess, is that the opposition to some of these environmentally harmful practices is very locally focused. They are not really concerned about the "earth" - just the streams and air quality in their own area. It is personal, not theoretical at all (which is how I see the items in the lists in the original post).

[Josh]

I have yet to meet any Amish who stump for stereotypically leftist things. I think it’s because they don’t read nor get influenced by leftists. Whereas they often are influenced by right leaning publications, neighbours, and so forth.

Most Amish are immediately turned off by the left’s very heavy pro lgbt push. The last political conversation I had with one consisted of him expressing that he thinks Biden is unfit to be a President.