Most Worthy Pardon Petition

[ken_sylvania]

I didn't say you got it wrong, just that you added a lot of extra political baggage that wouldn't have been necessary. The thing I think you got wrong was your claim that you were "not trying to be political" and "only trying to answer barnhart's questions." But since you suggested it....

According to the Constitution, the President of the United States has the sole power of pardons. The pardon process, similar to many other powers entrusted to Congress and the President, has over time increasingly been managed by the DOJ bureaucracy. This has been done in an effort to ensure that the most worthy cases are presented to the President for pardon, and to help manage the political implications associated with who gets pardoned. President Trump distrusts (perhaps a better word would be detests) the machinery of Government and the expertise of people outside his inner circle of friends. In the real world in which I live (I believe Ken called this an "alternate reality"), we currently have a president who somewhat takes after President Lincoln in his habit of bypassing the professional members of his staff and intervening in cases that catch his fancy. Our current president seems to view pardons as a kind of currency or weapon available, (as he sees it, to correct wrongs visited upon his supporters by the opposition), as I see it, to protect those who are willing to be loyal to him at all costs.

It just so happens that there is nothing at all in the Constitution to suggest that a president ought to be restricted to offering pardons only to those recommended by the DOJ.

This post is really on the edge because it does cause anyone responding to it to discuss the politics of pardons instead of the need or lack thereof.

I know Politics is really embedded in us right now. I am having fits not blasting about what is going on. It is a struggle for us all because of the political climate right now. I actually think that makes it all more important that we do shun it from our discussions here. We do need to back off and see things from a eternal perspective more. Martyrs died for our faith. Can we hold our tongue for 40 days so we come together in Christ instead of divide in society?

Noted.

[Ken]

I don't understand what this petition has to do with Anabaptist theology.

Since you are new to the forum, this might be a fair statement. You do not know that a conservative Mennonite pastor was imprisoned, not jailed, but sent to prison, for assisting her. We discussed the issue at length. Many here know Ken Miller personally and prayed for his and Lisa's situation. Encouraging a pardon for her would be very in line with our discussion and prayers. Now you know.

I hope by educating you better, you can find a way to discuss without bringing political viewpoints or positions.

Well, I don't feel entirely educated yet. Do you have links to a better discussion of the religious aspects of this case on this forum or elsewhere? Whether Anabaptist or otherwise? The description of the case in petition that RZehr linked to above makes no claims of religious persecution. From their description, the justification for the international child abduction was entirely about allegations of child sexual abuse and child endangerment, and presumably would have been exactly the same whether the abusive parent was male or female.

In any event, I would be uncomfortable with religious reasons being used to justify international child abductions. Dozens of children have been kidnapped from custodial parents in the US, Canada, and Western Europe and spirited into countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia for religious reasons. That is the far more common example. If you open the door to faith-based justifications for child abductions, that sort of thing that will flood through it.

[Robert]

Do you have links to a better discussion of the religious aspects of this case on this forum or elsewhere?

I suspect you can use a search tool as well as I.



http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13

[RZehr]

Ken, Robert is right in that I posted the link because of the personal aspect that many Mennonites have with this case. I'm posting the petition out of support for Lisa and Ken. It is hardly politically motivated, although that may not make sense to you.
I'm not posting because of some expectation or faith in the pardon system. In fact, I'm posting in spite of my lack of faith in the pardon system, and in spite of my distaste for sharing my contact information with Lifesitenews, and in spite of my low grade skepticism of the general lack of success of the...umm...anti-gay industrial complex/lobby?.
This is a case where many of us both in real life and on Mennonet, were very informed at the time, and discussed this at length. And as recent as October, the Nicaraguan police jailed Albert Strubhar, a Mennonite preacher from Oregon, in an attempt to find Lisa for the US authorities.

Whether it was illegal or not, was only of secondary importance. The actions taken by the convicted men were done out of conviction that this was the right and ethical thing to do at that time, and they did it.

[Ken]

Ken, Robert is right in that I posted the link because of the personal aspect that many Mennonites have with this case. I'm posting the petition out of support for Lisa and Ken. I'm not posting because of some expectation or faith in the pardon system. In fact, I'm posting in spite of my lack of faith in the pardon system, and in spite of my distaste for sharing my contact information, and in spite of my low grade skepticism of the success of the...umm...anti-gay industrial complex/lobby?.
This is a case where many of use were very informed at the time, and discussed at length. And as recent as October, the Nicaraguan police jailed Albert Strubhar, a Mennonite preacher from Oregon, in an attempt to find Lisa for the US authorities.

I understand that you and others here have a personal connection to the people involved in this case. And I can respect that. I have just not seen a clear and compelling Anabaptist/religious argument in support of the lawbreaking that occurred. And especially some sort of standard that would allow for the type of religious-based child abductions that you approve of, without opening the door for every other crazy religious cult or oppressive sect like fundamentalist Islam from doing the same thing for reasons that you disapprove of. If the shoe was on the other foot, and a child from a Mennonite home was kidnapped and spirited way into an Islamic country, would you feel the same way about US government attempts to locate the child?

[RZehr]

I understand that you and others here have a personal connection to the people involved in this case. And I can respect that. I have just not seen a clear and compelling Anabaptist/religious argument in support of the lawbreaking that occurred. And especially some sort of standard that would allow for the type of religious-based child abductions that you approve of, without opening the door for every other crazy religious cult or oppressive sect like fundamentalist Islam from doing the same thing for reasons that you disapprove of. If the shoe was on the other foot, and a child from a Mennonite home was kidnapped and spirited way into an Islamic country, would you feel the same way about US government attempts to locate the child?

Generally speaking, we are not in the writing government policy business. The problems you bring up here, are exactly why we are not. Our interests are not always compatible with a earthly governments interest and obligations. There is no way that we could write an equal kidnapping law for both Christians and Muslims, and nor does that bother us. Our allegiance is to Christ, not "fairness and equality" as defined by the government. We make no bones about the fact that we believe our Christian faith ought to be followed and obeyed by men and the Muslim faith is a false one which no man ought to pay heed, and that we ought to follow our conscience over the government. We don't think these things, Islam/Christianity, conscience/laws, are equal.
Yes, we do see that the government usually tries to treat all religions the same way, and we think that is commendable to some extent. But ultimately, we are following a different set of moral and ethical guidelines than the US government is, and when there is conflict, we do not necessarily choose the US government as a standard of righteousness.

[ohio jones]

Ken, regardless of how the government framed the case, and regardless of how you view it, it's clear that those involved saw their actions as preventing an abduction, not performing one.

Let's keep the discussion to this case and petition, not to other hypothetical cases or government policy, or the posts may be abducted.

[Ken]

Ken, regardless of how the government framed the case, and regardless of how you view it, it's clear that those involved saw their actions as preventing an abduction, not performing one.

Let's keep the discussion to this case and petition, not to other hypothetical cases or government policy, or the posts may be abducted.

Fine, we can agree to disagree and I will drop this. But I have still not seen the "Anabaptist framing" of this case that makes the compelling argument that their actions merited defying the commands of Romans 13, and that they were uniquely different from every other religious-based custody dispute, of which there are thousands every year.

I understand that the people involved here made a difficult choice, based on their religious principles. And that everyone here (or a majority here) have unified around them in support. I understand all of that. I just haven't seen the the Anabaptist argument laid out in a convincing way.

But we can agree to disagree. I don't have anything more to say about this.

[Grace]

Fine, we can agree to disagree and I will drop this. But I have still not seen the "Anabaptist framing" of this case that makes the compelling argument that their actions merited defying the commands of Romans 13, and that they were uniquely different from every other religious-based custody dispute, of which there are thousands every year.

I understand that the people involved here made a difficult choice, based on their religious principles. And that everyone here (or a majority here) have unified around them in support. I understand all of that. I just haven't seen the the Anabaptist argument laid out in a convincing way.

But we can agree to disagree. I don't have anything more to say about this.

Romans 13 is applicable only when the governmental authority DO NOT violate God's higher laws. In the Miller/Jenkin's case, the government refused to protect a child from a pervert. This was not an abduction, it was a the biological mother removing he young child from the threat of another non-biological perverted person.

[temporal1]

Fine, we can agree to disagree and I will drop this. But I have still not seen the "Anabaptist framing" of this case that makes the compelling argument that their actions merited defying the commands of Romans 13, and that they were uniquely different from every other religious-based custody dispute, of which there are thousands every year.

I understand that the people involved here made a difficult choice, based on their religious principles. And that everyone here (or a majority here) have unified around them in support. I understand all of that. I just haven't seen the the Anabaptist argument laid out in a convincing way.

But we can agree to disagree. I don't have anything more to say about this.

Romans 13 is applicable only when the governmental authority DO NOT violate God's higher laws. In the Miller/Jenkin's case, the government refused to protect a child from a pervert. This was not an abduction, it was a the biological mother removing he young child from the threat of another non-biological perverted person.

i do not object to Ken not saying anymore.

i have a suggestion. read.
there were a few threads over years about this case. some of the reports went into quite a bit about details involved. worth reading. Ken Miller had a site of some type in which he demonstrated authentic Christian response to EVERYONE and EVERY SITUATION he met, including those he met in prison, judges, etc. A role model for Christian response.

it’s more than worthwhile reading.
possibly a good investment of time in this 40 day sabbatical.

mike had a useful thread with many updates. a good place to begin.
i believe some threads were lost when MD crashed.

the actual plight of the mother+child is documented. not just biased one sided accusations.
prayers for mercy, and a miracle, were authentic.

scriptures assure, prayers and miracles are The Way.

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