The Pilgrim Church (aka: Kingdom Christians) Long List

[undershepherd]

Well said Jazman!

[PeterG]

Instead of a list of things, I offer this one point with related thoughts. I did my best to pare this down, my apologies if you begin to glaze. Anyway as I see it, there are two main camps...

The evangelical Protestant "faith alone, works can't/don't save, God just wants a relationship with you" camp... (some related points and personal thoughts)

1. I believe this thinking has become more extreme in the american experience and even more so in recent generations. The emphasis on pietism and just-believing-the-right-things is so embedded now, that a lot of people are actually living that way now. Millions of "evangelical" christians have a false hope in belief-alone and little prayers and mental assent but their worldliness renders them impotent in the face of current darkness (and many also openly collaborate with the darkness...)
2. In this camp, being relevant often seems more important than being countercultural* (*exception seems to be sexuality...)
3. I thought of a steam engine analogy the other day and it goes like this: Steam engines don't do much until they get a good boiler full of steam going. It seems to me that a lot of evangelical Protestant practice/thought works out like this too... people really don't do much or think they can do much unless they've got a full head of right beliefs and feelings of faith (spurred by the latest/greatest pietistic experience) Problem is, I see lots of people who spend years doing piety and "personal relationship with God" and who knows what else trying to work up that head of steam, but in real life... they haven't really been much of a witness or herald to the upside-down, countercultural Kingdom of God. And I have to include myself in that indictment as well. I look back over my life and especially my teen years and remember the heartache I spent trying to "feel" like a christian... trying to "be in relationship"... trying to work up that head of revivalist emotional steam...because that was the constant emphasis. It was years later that I finally realized that the Bible was telling me to go do something! Be kind to someone. Help someone. Forgive someone. Obey the command you know to do. Just do it. Stop waiting for some "faith" feeling or that "I'm right with God, now I can go do what He wants me to do feeling." I don't mean to downplay the sacrifice and hard work it takes to follow Christ - it's not easy, but paradoxically, He really doesn't ask that much. Love Him and love your neighbor... imo all the things people do to try to fulfill the add-ons (1)"you must have a deep intimate relationship! (2)You must have faith! (ie lots of mental hope/resolve) hinder rather than build the kingdom.
4. In other words, Do good (works); Obey and the relationship part will happen on its own and many years down the road someone may recall your actions and say, "that was faith" (like in Hebrews 11)
5. This faith-aloneism or God-just-wants-a-relationship is what makes so much room for runaway acculturation... Preach/teach this long enough and people will take faith-aloneism/it's-only-a-relationship to it's logical extreme...ie obedience, faithful endurance and active countercultural living isn't very important...

Kingdom Christianity, however, emphasizes faith and works (faithful works), and the Kingdom growing here on earth as it is in heaven through faithful obedience to Christ and the convictions God has lead you to (not just "belief" in Christ.

1. To me, even a basic perusing of Scripture shows an emphasis on doing, obedience, counterculture action etc. When Hebrews 11 talks about faith, it's looking back, seeing actions and then ascribing faith. I doubt Abraham, et al "felt" full of "faith" leading up to or during the act, but the obedience was, in hindsight a leap of faith. It continues to amaze me at times listening to people steeped in Protestant "faith aloneism" take one Scripture passage after another, and twist it into a "God doesn't care about your works-it's all about your attitude-He's done everything-you don't have to do anything" box, when the passage clearly says "now go DO this - I, God want you to DO something!" There's 0 mention of attitude. There's 0 mention of "relationship". There's 0 mention of some pietistic activity you have to do beforehand. There's 0 mention of "works don't save you" - yet that's what people will twist into it
2. This idea that works-do-matter makes room for lots of different convictions/practice that flows out of the basic principle...It makes room for our Catholic/Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. It has space for the Old Orders or other branches with distinct action-based convictions. Their tradition and teachings also teach that faith and works go hand in hand. They, as anyone would, often struggle to live up to the high ideals, but at least it's there! (unlike the evangelical faith-aloneism Protestant's active denigration of the works/faith principle.)
3. I have to put a plug in for some of the teaching/preaching I've heard from John D Martin on this subject. I think he was one of the first conservative Mennonites I heard(In my mind/memory) that was finally being honest and saying, "Works matter! And this modernist Protestant lingo we've been shoehorning in with our Anabaptism all these years doesn't describe what we're doing here! We're Anabaptists who believe in and live good works that do save us from the sins we do in the here/now and do show a way (imperfectly for sure) of salvation for the cosmos/world from its sin/brokenness. He's put us here to do that! We are here to DO things, not just believe or feel something! Now Bro Martin would probably disagree with how I'm trying to live that out and I'm sure he'd believe I'm not conservative/plain/radical enough. But here was someone who wasn't trying to be a plain menno whilst simultaneously trying to be a Protestant, feelings/belief obsessed revivalist...(like I think too many did in my background). It's hard to explain but it was freeing and inspiring. It cleared some of the fog that I'd been wrestling with since my youth.

I hope some of that makes some sense... I know some of it is venting but for me it's very current; very tangible and relevant to current events within american christianity, especially protestant evangelicalism (which is where I'm affiliated, despite the "Anabaptist" sheen we like to claim) I believe it also sheds light on the state of our culture, communities and politics... I hope it can add something to the list being drawn up because I do think "Kingdom Christianity" may be the Christianity that can actually endure and overcome and has a real witness in our world.

Quoted for excellence, and to make sure that it gets noticed here on page 4.

I have one thing to add: Faithful works are possible only through the grace of God in Christ. As another MNer pointed out recently (I don't remember who or where), Phil. 2 tells us to work out our salvation...because God works in us. Also Eph. 2—our salvation is the workmanship of God's grace, which fashions us into people who do good works. In my observation, attempts to rigorously follow Jesus and the apostles too often devolve into legalism and works that are only superficially good, while those who say they rest in God's grace too often have little to show for it. The church must couple uncompromising obedience with a robust concept of grace.

[appleman2006]

Instead of a list of things, I offer this one point with related thoughts. I did my best to pare this down, my apologies if you begin to glaze. Anyway as I see it, there are two main camps...

The evangelical Protestant "faith alone, works can't/don't save, God just wants a relationship with you" camp... (some related points and personal thoughts)

1. I believe this thinking has become more extreme in the american experience and even more so in recent generations. The emphasis on pietism and just-believing-the-right-things is so embedded now, that a lot of people are actually living that way now. Millions of "evangelical" christians have a false hope in belief-alone and little prayers and mental assent but their worldliness renders them impotent in the face of current darkness (and many also openly collaborate with the darkness...)
2. In this camp, being relevant often seems more important than being countercultural* (*exception seems to be sexuality...)
3. I thought of a steam engine analogy the other day and it goes like this: Steam engines don't do much until they get a good boiler full of steam going. It seems to me that a lot of evangelical Protestant practice/thought works out like this too... people really don't do much or think they can do much unless they've got a full head of right beliefs and feelings of faith (spurred by the latest/greatest pietistic experience) Problem is, I see lots of people who spend years doing piety and "personal relationship with God" and who knows what else trying to work up that head of steam, but in real life... they haven't really been much of a witness or herald to the upside-down, countercultural Kingdom of God. And I have to include myself in that indictment as well. I look back over my life and especially my teen years and remember the heartache I spent trying to "feel" like a christian... trying to "be in relationship"... trying to work up that head of revivalist emotional steam...because that was the constant emphasis. It was years later that I finally realized that the Bible was telling me to go do something! Be kind to someone. Help someone. Forgive someone. Obey the command you know to do. Just do it. Stop waiting for some "faith" feeling or that "I'm right with God, now I can go do what He wants me to do feeling." I don't mean to downplay the sacrifice and hard work it takes to follow Christ - it's not easy, but paradoxically, He really doesn't ask that much. Love Him and love your neighbor... imo all the things people do to try to fulfill the add-ons (1)"you must have a deep intimate relationship! (2)You must have faith! (ie lots of mental hope/resolve) hinder rather than build the kingdom.
4. In other words, Do good (works); Obey and the relationship part will happen on its own and many years down the road someone may recall your actions and say, "that was faith" (like in Hebrews 11)
5. This faith-aloneism or God-just-wants-a-relationship is what makes so much room for runaway acculturation... Preach/teach this long enough and people will take faith-aloneism/it's-only-a-relationship to it's logical extreme...ie obedience, faithful endurance and active countercultural living isn't very important...

Kingdom Christianity, however, emphasizes faith and works (faithful works), and the Kingdom growing here on earth as it is in heaven through faithful obedience to Christ and the convictions God has lead you to (not just "belief" in Christ.

1. To me, even a basic perusing of Scripture shows an emphasis on doing, obedience, counterculture action etc. When Hebrews 11 talks about faith, it's looking back, seeing actions and then ascribing faith. I doubt Abraham, et al "felt" full of "faith" leading up to or during the act, but the obedience was, in hindsight a leap of faith. It continues to amaze me at times listening to people steeped in Protestant "faith aloneism" take one Scripture passage after another, and twist it into a "God doesn't care about your works-it's all about your attitude-He's done everything-you don't have to do anything" box, when the passage clearly says "now go DO this - I, God want you to DO something!" There's 0 mention of attitude. There's 0 mention of "relationship". There's 0 mention of some pietistic activity you have to do beforehand. There's 0 mention of "works don't save you" - yet that's what people will twist into it
2. This idea that works-do-matter makes room for lots of different convictions/practice that flows out of the basic principle...It makes room for our Catholic/Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. It has space for the Old Orders or other branches with distinct action-based convictions. Their tradition and teachings also teach that faith and works go hand in hand. They, as anyone would, often struggle to live up to the high ideals, but at least it's there! (unlike the evangelical faith-aloneism Protestant's active denigration of the works/faith principle.)
3. I have to put a plug in for some of the teaching/preaching I've heard from John D Martin on this subject. I think he was one of the first conservative Mennonites I heard(In my mind/memory) that was finally being honest and saying, "Works matter! And this modernist Protestant lingo we've been shoehorning in with our Anabaptism all these years doesn't describe what we're doing here! We're Anabaptists who believe in and live good works that do save us from the sins we do in the here/now and do show a way (imperfectly for sure) of salvation for the cosmos/world from its sin/brokenness. He's put us here to do that! We are here to DO things, not just believe or feel something! Now Bro Martin would probably disagree with how I'm trying to live that out and I'm sure he'd believe I'm not conservative/plain/radical enough. But here was someone who wasn't trying to be a plain menno whilst simultaneously trying to be a Protestant, feelings/belief obsessed revivalist...(like I think too many did in my background). It's hard to explain but it was freeing and inspiring. It cleared some of the fog that I'd been wrestling with since my youth.

I hope some of that makes some sense... I know some of it is venting but for me it's very current; very tangible and relevant to current events within american christianity, especially protestant evangelicalism (which is where I'm affiliated, despite the "Anabaptist" sheen we like to claim) I believe it also sheds light on the state of our culture, communities and politics... I hope it can add something to the list being drawn up because I do think "Kingdom Christianity" may be the Christianity that can actually endure and overcome and has a real witness in our world.

Thank you Jazman.

I believe you say it very well here and I can certainly identify with what you are saying with perhaps one small difference. I have only begun to realize how blest I was growing up compared to the experience of some I have read about on here. While it was not lived out perfectly (Is it ever?) I was actually blest in growing up in a church and community that I think had this concept about right. That actually had a pretty good balance of this taught over the pulpit. And still feel I belong to a congregation that has it close. It is probably why I never saw John Martin's teaching as being that radical. Or even Bercot's for that matter. In fact I struggled for quite some time trying to figure out what made it different to some people. Took me awhile to catch on that the reason I did not see it as radical as some is that in many ways it was what I had always been taught.

Again I really appreciate the way you have laid it out here.

[Wade]

This has been a great thread.
But I am struggling to put it together completely...

What does "Long List" mean?
Is it then different from a statement of faith or used as a preliminary before?

Listened this morning from the Church Planters and Forum Retreat in a message about having a vision statement. Maybe that could help with this? As it seems some of the really good posts are more close to that as compared to the long list...?

Anyway it was fun combining what others wrote and personal desire to make this:

We desire in aiding to be part of a Christian fellowship of people that all see our need of a Saviour, and Jesus Christ being the fulfilment of that need. With a resulting turning from sin to God, loving our heavenly Father, radically commiting to follow Jesus' teaching and example in all areas of life, being faithfully prepared and committed to the possibility of suffering for the cause of Christ. Cultivating a community where people inside and outside it are continually encouraged into a closer walk with our Lord and a clearer view of His kingdom. Sharing a vision that is consistent in Him extending beyond culture, time, and distance, therefore able to grow, support, and propagate sharing a common Way being united one with another.

Seeing that the Kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed is not just a future endeavor - but a present life-transforming reality that believers are a part of. Through this transformation that local believers would gather in local fellowship joined together living in a real and practical community of love, accountability, and bearing one another's burdens.
Christ's kingdom does not advance through coercion or carnal power, but through the power of love and spiritual transformation. Coming forth from that is a genuine love for the brotherhood shown in our relationship with each other, learning to set other's interest and wellbeing ahead of one's self. With a special heart for the poor, the stranger, the widowed, the orphaned, the infirmed, the oppressed, like His example - resulting in practical acts of love and generosity overflowing into the community around us. Therefore committing to financial simplicity that includes non-accumulation of wealth and radical generosity toward those in need - both in and outside of the body of Christ. Where nonresistance is truly practiced both as it relates to the kingdoms of this world or those that would harm us, especially so in our daily lives with each other, and that "sharing each other's burdens" truly be done out of a voluntary sense of love and care and not just because that is what the church expects us to do.

We desire no omission from scripture in practice but to practice each of the Christian observances in a way that truly teaches and reminds us of the spiritual principals involved and that the observance in no way becomes an end in itself. That we would emphasize having united spirits with Christ living simple, modest, humble lives rather than exact unitedness in outward form. A commitment to living consistent and holy lives that is often contrary to the norm, so that, as salt & light, people may see our good deeds and praise our Father in Heaven.

We want to commit ourselves to the example of Christ as a servant that all members, men and women, old and young, married and single, while perhaps having different roles are all considered equal in their value to the body. Where those called out in leadership would truly have servant hearts and that more than any thing else truly act as servants that do not seek or wield power, and understand that true leadership is achieved through an attitude of humble and accountable service.

We recognize our humanity and that we will come short of such ideals at times but through His grace that we would confess those faults one to another, submit to Him, be longsuffering, and continue to encourage one another to press toward the mark.

Please help in wording, additions, subtractions, or criticizing.

[Once Again]

I'm a bit late in the game on this thread, but one thing I'd like to throw out there. A church that greatly emphasizes repentance as a part of the conversion process; that really helps new converts with recurrent sin in his/her life.

[Ernie]

This has been a great thread.
But I am struggling to put it together completely...

What does "Long List" mean?
Is it then different from a statement of faith or used as a preliminary before?

There has been a lot of effort on MD and MN to identify the essentials of Christianity or the essence of Anabaptism.
This thread is a place for people to list all the practical things or the more nuanced beliefs that they would like to see in a church that doesn't really fit in a list of essentials or things of essence.

Various people including E. H. Broadbent and David Bercot have attempted to describe evangelical Christians who think and function quite differently from mainstream Christian groups. They've used the terms Pilgrim Church or Kingdom Christians when describing these folks.
Bercot identifies conservative Anabaptists and some Old Order groups, as being the largest subset of Kingdom Christians.

This is a thread for people (who identify with any of the above underlined labels or would like to someday identify with) to list all the things that you would want to be present in a church or Christian subculture, that would not be commonly believed or practiced in a typical mainstream MC-USA church, mainstream CMC church, mainstream Protestant church, or mainstream Evangelical Protestant church. Some of the things in your list might not even apply to the conservative Anabaptist churches in your area.

I'm seeing in this thread that there are people who identify with terms that I would not have expected them to identify with. Basically because I didn't sufficiently define the terms the way those who coined the terms would have defined them.

Consequently we are seeing posts that reflect what would commonly be ascribed to in a mainstream Anabaptist church or in a conservative church with Reformed theology.

At some point it will be fun to sort this out but for now posters can feel free to keep writing according to the OP.
However it is fine if you want to make a list of things that would not be found in the typical mainstream Anabaptist church or in the typical conservative church that borrows heavily from Reformed theology.

[Wade]

That clarification helps.
I was rewording what I posted to fit my view more than what it felt like the tone was on here for my own but not necessarily with the intent to share...
Maybe that is where I have been a bit hesitant in exposing things that I would like that could be discouraging to others...
But now I see better and need to work from the start a bit more and then maybe will share...
I fall short in discerning the difference in theology often...

[Josh]

I'm a bit late in the game on this thread, but one thing I'd like to throw out there. A church that greatly emphasizes repentance as a part of the conversion process; that really helps new converts with recurrent sin in his/her life.

I would argue a church needs to emphasise repentance for lifelong members and those born into the church as well.

New converts are usually pretty good at repenting and making big changes. Those who are lifers tend to have trouble with even small changes.

[Wade]

I'm a bit late in the game on this thread, but one thing I'd like to throw out there. A church that greatly emphasizes repentance as a part of the conversion process; that really helps new converts with recurrent sin in his/her life.

I would argue a church needs to emphasise repentance for lifelong members and those born into the church as well.

New converts are usually pretty good at repenting and making big changes. Those who are lifers tend to have trouble with even small changes.

I think this is a good example of where it can be hard to come up with a list without a starting point. For the unchurched when they come to reading about Christian's not wearing gold it should be easy and straight forward to obey for the sake of Christ. This is essential! But so many in erring settings have been told they are Christian's or proclaim to be but yet don't obey... And so people are confused why they should follow what scripture plainly says... So then to make a list of things that are not essential but very very practical from the teachings of scripture can be hard to come to terms with and to be consistent with for most not raised in it, while those born in it might even understand why those applications are right and the principles behind them but fail at times to have a personal convictions in them so that the principles fill every part of their lives consistently...
Repentance equates to obedience. But obedience to one principle has to cover all aspects of life without lessening another... Therefore obedience to church standards doesn't automatically mean repentance or following Christ, but I am certainly for having them.

[Ernie]

That clarification helps.
I was rewording what I posted to fit my view more than what it felt like the tone was on here for my own but not necessarily with the intent to share...
Maybe that is where I have been a bit hesitant in exposing things that I would like that could be discouraging to others...
But now I see better and need to work from the start a bit more and then maybe will share...
I fall short in discerning the difference in theology often...

I agree with folks like David Bercot who say that good theology can be developed over a life-time but obedience can and should happen as soon as someone becomes aware of what they should obey. Bercot and others have noticed that most conservative Mennonites do not have early church or early Anabaptist theology, yet many of their practices are similar when it comes to lifestyle issues like separation from the world, not taking oaths, non-resistance, giving to the poor, supporting evangelists, etc.
All this to say that no one needs to feel inferior if they have difficulty sorting out theology. I'm still discovering things all the time and I've been at this for quite awhile.

For the unchurched when they come to reading about Christian's not wearing gold it should be easy and straight forward to obey for the sake of Christ. This is essential! But so many in erring settings have been told they are Christian's or proclaim to be but yet don't obey... And so people are confused why they should follow what scripture plainly says... So then to make a list of things that are not essential but very very practical from the teachings of scripture can be hard to come to terms with and to be consistent with for most not raised in it, while those born in it might even understand why those applications are right and the principles behind them but fail at times to have a personal convictions in them so that the principles fill every part of their lives consistently...
Repentance equates to obedience. But obedience to one principle has to cover all aspects of life without lessening another... Therefore obedience to church standards doesn't automatically mean repentance or following Christ, but I am certainly for having them.

This is really insightful, Wade!