Define "plain"

[Wade]

My thoughts on 'plain' -

How did Jesus refer to 'attention drawing' - “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." We no doubt are meant to draw attention to the light within us through good works.

God didn't make a boring, colourless, basic, non-complex world for us to live in and made people with beautiful hair colours, eye colours, various skin tones, etc and gifted them in areas of music and art and writing and intelligence, etc, etc. So, I have trouble when any 'plain' concept drifts into a drab, black & white presentation of Christianity. One of the most attractive features of a Christ follower is their amazing love, peace and joy under any circumstance. Loving the most unloving in the world's eyes. These are the areas I think of that impacts the world to see Christianity as not about what you give up but rather what you have found.

Whether one wears a form of traditional wear or a modern outfit, I doubt this is making much impression on pointing others to Jesus. But a life of good works lived in the abundant life Jesus spoke about where our joy will be complete and our peace beyond human understandings and love for even those who see us as enemies, now that will make them sit up and take notice.

I don't ever want to be classified as a 'plain' Christian if that means a religious person who is mainly about restricting enjoying this life. One can view the Christian life as a life of suffering and endurance of those sufferings. Or a life of suffering that just makes the abundance of God's grace shine out through us in a joyful, fearless, loving and peaceful way.

I'm not there yet but I believe this is what a life walking in the power of the Holy Spirit was intended for us to experience.

I see what your saying Sudsy.

But for me where I coming at this is again that one trait cannot override or omit another. Being modest and humble means that we will not be trying to draw attention to ourselves, however being lights - attention will be drawn, except it won't be because we are being loud.

And to add it is just as inconsistent for woman to have to dress modestly while the men do not. Just as inconsistent as the modestly dressed couple to drive a new luxury car. Just as inconsistent as the ones in a modest car parking in front of their massive new expensive home. As inconsistent as the modest home with the huge barn with new tractors inside. And as inconsistent as the one who is completely plain or Plain in all aspects of life but not living for the good of others. As inconsistent as the one professing Christ but not living like they know Him. As inconsistent as the ambassador of His kingdom voting in elections of an earthly kingdom. As inconsistent as being a child of the Prince of Peace but partaking or agreeing with war.

At times it seems we don't plainly see that living wholly for God should touch every part of our lives. How is that not plain and simple?!

[Sudsy]

I see what your saying Sudsy.

But for me where I coming at this is again that one trait cannot override or omit another. Being modest and humble means that we will not be trying to draw attention to ourselves, however being lights - attention will be drawn, except it won't be because we are being loud.

Agree. The attention we draw, if Jesus shines through, will not be to ourselves but rather to Him. "Let your light so shine before men that they will see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." If we are getting the glory, then something big is missing in how we are doing these good works. I would suggest what is missing most often is the connection that it is Jesus behind why we do these works and I don't understand how this occurs without words being used regarding Jesus.

Do onlookers see Jesus in us or do they see a morally upright, humble, modest doer of good and that is what our religion requires ? I know atheists that outshine Christians in their good works and they are given glory by man. Likewise, atheists and people of other religions can appear humble and modest. Many Muslims for instance. I think the light we are to shine is often hidden by religion and not our relationship with God, otherwise those observing would acknowledge God is behind these actions.

And to add it is just as inconsistent for woman to have to dress modestly while the men do not. Just as inconsistent as the modestly dressed couple to drive a new luxury car. Just as inconsistent as the ones in a modest car parking in front of their massive new expensive home. As inconsistent as the modest home with the huge barn with new tractors inside. And as inconsistent as the one who is completely plain or Plain in all aspects of life but not living for the good of others. As inconsistent as the one professing Christ but not living like they know Him. As inconsistent as the ambassador of His kingdom voting in elections of an earthly kingdom. As inconsistent as being a child of the Prince of Peace but partaking or agreeing with war.

We certainly are inconsistent in our practise and that is why we must point people to the perfect one, Jesus. At the same time, we work with God in becoming more consistent.

At times it seems we don't plainly see that living wholly for God should touch every part of our lives. How is that not plain and simple?!

True but this is a life long learning experience.

[Hats Off]

I see what your saying Sudsy.

But for me where I coming at this is again that one trait cannot override or omit another. Being modest and humble means that we will not be trying to draw attention to ourselves, however being lights - attention will be drawn, except it won't be because we are being loud.

And to add it is just as inconsistent for woman to have to dress modestly while the men do not. Just as inconsistent as the modestly dressed couple to drive a new luxury car. Just as inconsistent as the ones in a modest car parking in front of their massive new expensive home. As inconsistent as the modest home with the huge barn with new tractors inside. And as inconsistent as the one who is completely plain or Plain in all aspects of life but not living for the good of others. As inconsistent as the one professing Christ but not living like they know Him. As inconsistent as the ambassador of His kingdom voting in elections of an earthly kingdom. As inconsistent as being a child of the Prince of Peace but partaking or agreeing with war.

At times it seems we don't plainly see that living wholly for God should touch every part of our lives. How is that not plain and simple?!

Right on, Wade; I would like to quote you in our church paper but it would probably not be printed with language as plain as yours.

[Ernie]

Why do we as conservatives typically limit our definition of "plain" to outward appearances (especially women's attire) and vehicles, but won't typically judge the "plain-ness" of houses, farm equipment, high-tech gadgetry, and business marketing tactics, which are often times just as fancy, if not fancier, than the rest of their neighbors?

Because Conservative Anabaptists are human. And unless humans are willing to listen to folks outside of their peer group, they will develop blind-spots.
Consider for example that most conservative Anabaptists like the words Non-conformity and Non-resistance but many do not like the new term that was introduced in recent history, "Non-accumulation".

Keep in mind that the majority of plain people do judge the plain-ness of houses, farm equipment, marketing tactics, etc. (roughly 250,000 people)
The majority of intermediate, moderate conservatives and progressive conservatives as well as some Old Order Amish churches do not. (roughly 40,000 people)
So in answer to your question of "why", I think it is because the latter are in transition.

[appleman2006]

I am still not sure it is fair to judge all of these groups in the way that you have Ernie. I recognize there may be some truth to what you say but I think conformity when it come to materialism is pretty rampant in parts of all groups from the plainest to the other end. And frankly it is why I try not to judge groups of people by what may be apparent the first time I see them.

I do not come from a perfect church. Far from it. But I will tell you this. From first glance and if you were to look at our statement of practice in many ways we might be on the more progressive end of even the moderate groups when it comes to dress and such. Education is highly valued. In fact when it comes to formal education I would rank in the bottom 10 percent in the congregation among adults.
However even though we have few to no rules in this area and we certainly are not regularly preached to regarding it yet you will be hard pressed to find a congregation at least in our area that is less materialistic. The homes and vehicles that people drive tend to be adequate and yet simple with very few exemptions. Based on the weekly offering amounts giving is extremely generous.
Numerous new comers have commented that what they found here was plainness that really mattered in their eyes. Again we are not perfect. A long way from it. But I am more and more convinced that true simplicity cannot be mandated. It must come from the heart.
But I am suspecting that I am speaking to the choir here and that most of you would agree.

[Wade]

I agree that it can't be mandated. Is it possible that there is just something wrong with how it is taught?
I don't know how but I'm trying to find ways to teach my children to obey but more importantly to seek out these things themselves in scripture that they can make these desicions at any time, place or location that is honouring to God, without having to have someone dictate to them, but still respect and accept counsel and brotherhood voice...

[Ernie]

Keep in mind that the majority of plain people do judge the plain-ness of houses, farm equipment, marketing tactics, etc. (roughly 250,000 people)
The majority of intermediate, moderate conservatives and progressive conservatives as well as some Old Order Amish churches do not. (roughly 40,000 people)
So in answer to your question of "why", I think it is because the latter are in transition.

I am still not sure it is fair to judge all of these groups in the way that you have Ernie. I recognize there may be some truth to what you say but I think conformity when it come to materialism is pretty rampant in parts of all groups from the plainest to the other end. And frankly it is why I try not to judge groups of people by what may be apparent the first time I see them.

I'm saying that the majority do "judge" in these matters and that the minority are hesitant to judge these matters. I'm not saying that their judgment is correct, but simply am saying that the do judge. I didn't say that all do in the first category and that all do not in the second category.

Do you disagree with this?

[Haystack]

Would it be fair to judge a business owners tools that provide his family a income? It might be fancier than what is needed, but if it helps get the job done faster and can increase/help business, then I don't see the problem with that. Getting the job done faster means more family time.

[Hats Off]

The "plain" way of doing income tax and bookkeeping would be with pencil and ledger paper. I am not skilled enough to do that - I need the latest tools to help me do my work. and the time I save, I spend here.

[Josh]

Would it be fair to judge a business owners tools that provide his family a income? It might be fancier than what is needed, but if it helps get the job done faster and can increase/help business, then I don't see the problem with that. Getting the job done faster means more family time.

With this mindset one can justify almost anything.