Interested in learning about Holdemans

[ohio jones]

To fully have a united church, congregations need to fully honour each other's membership, baptisms, excommunications, being placed on repentance (steps before excommunication), practicing avoidance in a scriptural manner of excommunicants, ordained ministry from each other's churches, and so forth. If those things aren't being done, then there really isn't any unity, and one or both churches considers itself more "true" than the other.

So the Holdemans are preventing a united church by not recognizing baptisms from other churches?

[JohnH]

So the Holdemans are preventing a united church by not recognizing baptisms from other churches?

If anyone wants to explore full communion, a line of dialogue can be opened. In the event of full communion of an existing congregation or congregations (with no changes to those churches in regards to doctrine and certain practices), rebaptisms would obviously not be necessary.

[joshuabgood]

So the Holdemans are preventing a united church by not recognizing baptisms from other churches?

If anyone wants to explore full communion, a line of dialogue can be opened. In the event of full communion of an existing congregation or congregations (with no changes to those churches in regards to doctrine and certain practices), rebaptisms would obviously not be necessary.

How did the Holdemans handle it when you left the church you were attending and joined them?

[Soloist]

So the Holdemans are preventing a united church by not recognizing baptisms from other churches?

If anyone wants to explore full communion, a line of dialogue can be opened. In the event of full communion of an existing congregation or congregations (with no changes to those churches in regards to doctrine and certain practices), rebaptisms would obviously not be necessary.

Yes interesting caveat. Otherwise the Tampico having to get rebaptized would have been an issue with them considering joining.

[Southerner]

Now they are disappointed and seeking stricter churches. Many want to seek a horse and buggy / non-electric group. They all want a church which isn’t a revolving door of young people leaving for less conservative settings. They also all want a church with stricter standards on dress and media / technology usage. And they would like to see more openness to productive evangelism.

"Tell me the old, old story." The pendulum is a-swingin.

[ohio jones]

Now they are disappointed and seeking stricter churches. Many want to seek a horse and buggy / non-electric group. They all want a church which isn’t a revolving door of young people leaving for less conservative settings. They also all want a church with stricter standards on dress and media / technology usage. And they would like to see more openness to productive evangelism.

"Tell me the old, old story." The pendulum is a-swingin.

Very often when one develops a transitional mindset, whether in a less conservative or more conservative direction, stopping becomes difficult.

[mike]

For purposes of a thread titled "Interested in learning about Holdemans," it does seems like an interested person should know a few basic things that have been true about the COGICM in the past. Whether these things are more nuanced, or might be changing, or the sentiment toward which might be changing within the Holdeman church, I am not aware. So here are a few things that I understand to be true about them.

1. Holdemans require all new members to be baptized, even if they were baptized by another church previously.
2. Holdemans excommunicate all members who leave for another church outside of their denomination.
3. Holdemans, like Old Colonists and some other groups derived from Russian Mennonites/Dutch Anabaptists, allow divorce and remarriage in some cases, contrary to many (most?) other conservative Anabaptist groups.

[JohnH]

For purposes of a thread titled "Interested in learning about Holdemans," it does seems like an interested person should know a few basic things that have been true about the COGICM in the past. Whether these things are more nuanced, or might be changing, or the sentiment toward which might be changing within the Holdeman church, I am not aware. So here are a few things that I understand to be true about them.

1. Holdemans require all new members to be baptized, even if they were baptized by another church previously.

Yes. This is not a secret.

2. Holdemans excommunicate all members who leave for another church outside of their denomination.

Yes. This isn't a secret either, although it would be more accurate to say that excommunications are a recognition of a spiritual death that has already occurred, as we don't believe us as members or ministers are the ones who can excommunicate. Rather, we recognise a spritual death when someone leaves a congregation and decides to go somewhere else. (If they believe the congregation is apostate, then they shouldn't care if the congregation thinks they are excommunicated or not.)

3. Holdemans are the only conservative Mennonites who allow divorce and remarried persons to be members, as long as the previous marriage happened prior to their becoming a member of the Holdeman church, because that marriage occurred outside their church.

This is patently false, and is a frequent slander I hear against our church. Would you mind retracting this claim and then we can discuss what actually happens?

Holdemans recognise marriage regardless of how officiated: in a church, justice of the peace, or via other cultural standards. (In our churches in Nigeria, living together is considered to constitute a marriage, because that's how it works in that culture; when a man and a woman live together, the are considered married from that point on, so our church recognises that.)

When someone commits adultery, we consider the marriage bond to be broken, and the innocent party is free to remarry. This is not something to be done lightly, and is a long process. The two parties are always encouraged to reconcile, but with a recognition that repeated unfaithfulness does not mean the innocent party must necessarily agree to go back into a relationship with someone who is repeatedly unfaithful. (Adultery also includes things like finding out someone is a practicing homosexual, etc.)

If the local congregation agrees to it, plus a quorum of ministers from other congregations, then a person can remarry.

If someone to the church who has a divorce in their past, the congregation first has to decide whether to accept them into fellowship based on how repentant they seem (in particular if they are not holding a grudge against an ex-spouse). If they are married to someone else, then both people are evaluated (if both people are joining). Then it also needs to be evaluated if the marriage bond had been broken. Obviously, if their ex-spouse has gone and married someone else, then it is obvious the marriage bond is broken. Otherwise it would not be suitable for them to join in such a divorced & remarried state.

For all that JohnH has written about the COGICM, I haven't found anything that leads me to believe otherwise.

I have discussed the marriage details quite a few times before, so I don't know what happened there.

[joshuabgood]

So they accept marriages from other churches but not baptisms?

[mike]

3. Holdemans are the only conservative Mennonites who allow divorce and remarried persons to be members, as long as the previous marriage happened prior to their becoming a member of the Holdeman church, because that marriage occurred outside their church.

This is patently false, and is a frequent slander I hear against our church. Would you mind retracting this claim and then we can discuss what actually happens?

I will be happy to rephrase this. See your PMs.