CAM Molestation Issue

[temporal1]

Much smaller institutions are less prone to widespread systemic abuse and are also less attractive to power-hungry people.

Preventing and dealing with things like sexual abuse may be easier in an organization that has the resources to dedicate people to these tasks. Many small charities are inefficient or wrong-headed or ineffective or even tolerant of abuse simply because they don't have the experience or resources to do better.

Many small charities are very good too, I'm just saying there are real tradeoffs.

CAM makes a point of advertising their low overhead. Everyone seems to assume that's a good thing, but if it comes at the expense of proper vetting and supervision of workers, "head to toe" training, and other necessary tasks, it can actually become a negative. I noticed Herr Herr seemed to have quite a bit of difficulty figuring out who was where when; maybe increasing the salaries of senior field workers so there's more continuity would have helped, rather than having frequent turnover of personnel. That turnover may have helped him evade discovery longer.

On one hand larger organizations have an economy of scale and greater leverage of resources; on the other, there can be a "too big to fail" attitude that seems to be showing up in this situation.

it seems .. the first response is (and, at this point, there is no shortage of these cases across the board) we are too big! / we are too small! -

but, why not, “we are too sinful!” -
size is a distraction. no matter budget or numbers or system.

i hope, as the dust settles, a good look at what is done right, and preserving that, will balance what was done wrong, and correcting (not over-correcting) that part.

[Bootstrap]

but, why not, “we are too sinful!” -
size is a distraction. no matter budget or numbers or system.

Let's face it, we are all too sinful. But all too often, we would rather focus on that other guy's sin. I much prefer sermons that speak directly to the audience, where a pastor examines his own heart and invites us all to do the same. I don't like sermons that assure us of our own righteousness and contrast that with the sinfulness of those other people out there.

That's the difference between building righteousness and building self-righteousness.

[queserasera_2]

Nonresistance is also described in our church as being "defenseless". Ie you do not use legal means to escape consequences or hire lawyers who advise you against Scripture. If someone sues you, you give him extra.

Do you believe Ken Miller represented a good Christian witness in his situation?

I'm sure that this is not meant to be a trick question but it sorta ends up being. I was not present in the courtroom during the testimony of his trial. So, I really do not know what the details are of his guilt or innocence. From what I saw and read, I do not feel he injured his testimony.

[temporal1]

Nonresistance is also described in our church as being "defenseless". Ie you do not use legal means to escape consequences or hire lawyers who advise you against Scripture. If someone sues you, you give him extra.

Do you believe Ken Miller represented a good Christian witness in his situation?

I'm sure that this is not meant to be a trick question but it sorta ends up being. I was not present in the courtroom during the testimony of his trial. So, I really do not know what the details are of his guilt or innocence. From what I saw and read, I do not feel he injured his testimony.

yes. thank you. it was not a trick question.
like you, of course, i was not present. even if i had been, i have no legal education.

i followed what i could, mostly what was shared on MD and MN, including a (website?) or, a page where he shared his thoughts with updates as was possible. there were a few reports on Catholic pages, a few in news reports. mike shared updates.

i felt he, his family, and community. did the best they could to be witnesses to their faith in the unexpected and “foreign” setting of courtrooms and prisons. it was encouraging to see, “have courage, this can be done!”

there is no comparison in the nature of the crimes committed.
reports are, J Mast understands he broke human laws and gravely sinned, he directly harmed numbers of vulnerable children over years, and indirectly harmed and made complicit more in the process;
Ken Miller did not realize he was doing anything illegal, just the opposite, he had no criminal history, there was confusion of laws between two states, and changing, untested laws, some of these questions are still unanswered (in my view).

Ken M comes to mind because of his consistent desire for Christian response to human law and courts, even in the face of what may have been legal confusion or errors. “How to respond” is now a central question in this CAM case.

Ken M’s case was probably meant to be used to establish legal precedent for political purposes.
If so, “the stakes” were higher than if the judge/courts could have just ruled on the matter at hand, free of outside politics. This other path will not be known.

i appreciate your answer.

[Wade]

Brother Wade - I admire your strong sense of justice and doing the Christlike thing here. We share those motives. I suspect you have witnessed real wrong along your journey, and that you want justice to win out so that the victims can find peace. I do too.

But to respond - first, preserving Jeriah’s life is not my “main point.” It was a parenthetical concern in a 500 word post. Second, I believe the message of Christ is that through the power of his death & resurrection, and his extraordinary forgiveness, he makes that which is broken whole, that which is vile clean again - including us - and even including this situation. I pray for that end. There is no restoration, no earthly reconciliation possible with a dead man.

It’s a complete perversion of nonresistance to claim it means aiding and abetting a serial child molester to stay out of prison.

There are plenty of other child molesters facing jail sentences. Are we doing anything to “help” them? Or just helping one of our “own” who happens to be a minister’s son?

Josh - time out! Please STOP making things up. I can't engage you if you continue to do this.

Re-read what I have written from the beginning before you accuse me of "aiding and abetting a serial child molester to stay out of prison."

I'll await your retraction.

I thought this was ironic Dan...

You aren't listening to what I am saying and make it up that I am looking for justice and then tell Josh to stop making things up...

I am not looking for justice - period. I hope you can understand that...?

I am looking for owning up to responsibility which is the only way I believe restoration can happen.

When I have done wrong I have felt the need to go settle it with the offended person(s). So the problem I see is that Jeriah Mast fled the country and then by you saying he needs to be protected you are not supporting any idea of reconciliation and therefore there will likely be no restoration either.

It's like a child doing wrong and then running home to his parents to be protected. I have never seen this attitude with the Mennonites I have known and know with young children yet it seems you are advocating the opposite and same spirit of lack of accountability that has this situation in the state it is.




P.S. No need to suspect things my worldly parents have no patience for abuse of children. I never experienced any abuse as a child and don't really have any emotional attachment in my past or present to sway me here - I just was taught strongly to be responsible, own your faults, confess your faults and apologize to those you have wronged and anything less is cowardly - without knowing it I think some of the things they taught me were not too far off.

[temporal1]

but, why not, “we are too sinful!” -
size is a distraction. no matter budget or numbers or system.

Let's face it, we are all too sinful. But all too often, we would rather focus on that other guy's sin. I much prefer sermons that speak directly to the audience, where a pastor examines his own heart and invites us all to do the same. I don't like sermons that assure us of our own righteousness and contrast that with the sinfulness of those other people out there.

That's the difference between building righteousness and building self-righteousness.

you are overlaying things on this i did not intend, and do not care for.
hopefully, oj will understand my message to him. he’s a good reader.

[joshuabgood]

Much smaller institutions are less prone to widespread systemic abuse and are also less attractive to power-hungry people.

Preventing and dealing with things like sexual abuse may be easier in an organization that has the resources to dedicate people to these tasks. Many small charities are inefficient or wrong-headed or ineffective or even tolerant of abuse simply because they don't have the experience or resources to do better.

Many small charities are very good too, I'm just saying there are real tradeoffs.

CAM makes a point of advertising their low overhead. Everyone seems to assume that's a good thing, but if it comes at the expense of proper vetting and supervision of workers, "head to toe" training, and other necessary tasks, it can actually become a negative. I noticed Herr Herr seemed to have quite a bit of difficulty figuring out who was where when; maybe increasing the salaries of senior field workers so there's more continuity would have helped, rather than having frequent turnover of personnel. That turnover may have helped him evade discovery longer.

On one hand larger organizations have an economy of scale and greater leverage of resources; on the other, there can be a "too big to fail" attitude that seems to be showing up in this situation.

Thing is...they actually knew. The supervisors knew. The church knew. And they all sent him back anyway. He then preyed on boys as a "Sugar Daddy" with donors money.

[Wade]

I think your avoidance of responsibility in Haiti is one of the most disappointing things in all this and that so many people hearted it too. We have no control on him going so why did you have to include that? I don't think this has the heart of early Christianity or the original Anabaptists at all with including that - others have been willing to die for Christ's kingdom - not save their life. I really think you know how to preach non-resistance Dan but I am not sure you understand applying it...

Sorry you feel that way Wade.

You should know that my non-resistance is grounded on Christ's teachings and example of non-violence and the sanctity of life - that God alone should be the giver and taker of life. Thus I will not recommend violence, abortion, warfare, euthanasia, or capital punishment.

From what I know about Haitian prisons (some of the worst in the world), I honestly don't believe Jeriah would survive his time there - in other words I believe it would be a death sentence - which is retributive not restorational. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Jesus calls us to transcend "eye for eye" thinking - that's how I try to apply my nonresistance.

This reminds me of your issue with Mr. Graham(I know nothing about him). My reply to your Situational ethics thread:
Re: Situational Ethics!?!
Report this post
Quote
Postby Wade » Mon May 07, 2018 3:49 am

Is it about politics, situational ethics, or allegiance?
I've honestly seen many "good people," tolerate sin in a person that is in their family, or their political party, or their church, or their denomination, or anything they identify with, while not accepting it in others outside who they identify with. This happens everywhere as far as I have seen and I think we need to remember keeping our allegiance away from politics isn't good enough, but rather keeping our allegiance to God and His kingdom is the only allegiance worth standing for.

It’s a complete perversion of nonresistance to claim it means aiding and abetting a serial child molester to stay out of prison.

There are plenty of other child molesters facing jail sentences. Are we doing anything to “help” them? Or just helping one of our “own” who happens to be a minister’s son?

This is a question I have been thinking too.

Dan would you be willing to put so much effort and time into others?
Could we be guilty of being a respector of persons otherwise?

I fully believe focusing on the fate of the person(which you perceive) rather than responsibility causes people to compromise living with principle and therefore distrusting God. If God wants to protect someone from Haitian prison He could do that without a problem, no need to compromise your integrity with situational ethics.

[ohio jones]

...maybe increasing the salaries of senior field workers so there's more continuity would have helped, rather than having frequent turnover of personnel. That turnover may have helped him evade discovery longer.

Thing is...they actually knew. The supervisors knew. The church knew. And they all sent him back anyway. He then preyed on boys as a "Sugar Daddy" with donors money.

I had in mind people at the level of Mr. Rodenhouse who, had he been given the truth instead of an evasive answer, might have been able to see that the activity was ongoing and prevent at least some of it.

[RZehr]

Will Rodenhuis came by last night and he said he had no details or idea what was going on down there except was told that Jeriah had some “moral failings” and it was taken care of. I talked with my brother Leland Zehr today (who was mentioned in the Herr audio) and he didn’t know anything at all.
They were both “over” Jeriah down there and didn’t know.