Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective

I know that handguns are carried to church by members in "good standing" in these groups -

 
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Ken
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Ken »

barnhart wrote:Maybe Ernie is pointing out that carrying handguns about is inherently dangerous and not just for the "enemies". I stood next to a man in a public place who accidentally shot himself with a concealed weapon, rupturing an artery in his leg. I didn't feel very safe.
Oh sure. When we were living in Texas, a doctor that my wife knew was loading guns into the trunk of his car outside of a gun shop down the street from us and managed to accidentally shoot himself to death right there in the gun shop parking lot.

There are endless stories about this sort of thing. Guns are much more likely to kill their owners or family members than a stranger or criminal.
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Judas Maccabeus
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

barnhart wrote:Maybe Ernie is pointing out that carrying handguns about is inherently dangerous and not just for the "enemies". I stood next to a man in a public place who accidentally shot himself with a concealed weapon, rupturing an artery in his leg. I didn't feel very safe.
Statically, if you own a handgun, the one most likely to be shot with it is the owner. This can occur either by suicide or accident. When I trained at UofMd’s shock trauma unit, I never saw someone shot by a homeowner in self defense come in. Saw plenty of suicides and accidents. The most heart rending was a kid who came in after accidentally shooting himself with his father’s loaded gun. Hopkins would have ordinarily gotten that but they were on flyby. That was in my dreams for awhile.

Carrying a gun is both a danger to yourself and others.

J.M.
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Ernie
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Ernie »

Ken wrote:I'm curious what point you are making by posting it here?
Only connection is with the poll... carrying concealed weapons to church...

I'm still unclear as to whether the Anabaptists referenced in the poll would use their handgun to subdue a potentially harmful person in a church.
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Ken
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Ken »

So I clicked through and read the articles about this Texas concealed carry shooting

This was a classic story of a "good guy with a gun"…with a catastrophic rewrite to the ending that many gun-advocates imagine for such tales. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... h-shooting
The shooting, at Starrville Methodist Church, about 100 miles east of Dallas, occurred just after 9 a.m. when only about four people were in the church, authorities said.

The pastor found the intruder hiding in a bathroom stall and drew his weapon, Smith told reporters. The man lunged at the pastor, disarming him, shooting him and injuring two others, Smith said. Smith declined to name the pastor or other victims, but said at least one of the wounded was hospitalized.
A decent Christian human being would feel sorrow for the pointless loss, regret at the event, compassion for the dead man’s family, and would note the terrible tyranny of the gun. The firearm has no conscience, and does not care who pulls its trigger. The local sheriff, however, has a different view:
[Smith County Sheriff Larry] Smith said he believed the pastor was correct in arming himself.

“They did everything we would tell them to do; they were carrying,” Smith said of the church. “But the thing about it is, and I don’t want to get off into it, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you got to be willing to use it.
The is taking the "blame the victim" attitude to a grotesque end. The murdered man is responsible for his fate because he was not a ruthless and remorseless enough killer. There is some truth in that, of course. If a gun appears in a situation, the odds that it will be fired go way up, and that’s the situation the pastor created by carrying a sidearm. But the key phrase here is Sheriff Smith’s first thought: the pastor “did everything we would tell (him) to do.” Asking citizens to rehearse violence as a regular facet of their daily lives, just to be ready when the bad guy shows up is no way to lead a life, especially a Christian life, either an individual one, or that of a society. It’s the ultimate surrender to the tyranny of the gun.

First of all, it is hard for even properly and regularly trained folks to get this right at any random moment when the skill might be needed. We know this by how many police shootings we have each year where innocent victims get shot. Furthermore, there’s no way that your preacher, your teacher, your ER charge nurse, your grocery store asst. manager, your preschool teacher, should be expected to do the impossible. The sheriff said of this situation–”I don’t want to be second-guessing the pastor by any means. You got a much younger person, a much more agile person,” Which, of course, is most often going to be true when dealing with criminals. There is always someone faster, meaner, more remorseless, and luckier.

Accepting stories like this as mere "collateral damage" in the cause of unfettered access to guns in our society is no way to live. It is certainly no way to organize a Christian society.
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Ernie
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Ernie »

Ken wrote:
[Smith County Sheriff Larry] Smith said he believed the pastor was correct in arming himself.

“They did everything we would tell them to do; they were carrying,” Smith said of the church. “But the thing about it is, and I don’t want to get off into it, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you got to be willing to use it.
The is taking the "blame the victim" attitude to a grotesque end. The murdered man is responsible for his fate because he was not a ruthless and remorseless enough killer. There is some truth in that, of course.
Interesting. I guessed to somebody earlier today that this is the conclusion the concealed carry folks would make.
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The old woodcutter spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge?"
barnhart
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by barnhart »

Ernie wrote:
Ken wrote:
[Smith County Sheriff Larry] Smith said he believed the pastor was correct in arming himself.

“They did everything we would tell them to do; they were carrying,” Smith said of the church. “But the thing about it is, and I don’t want to get off into it, but if you are going to carry a firearm, you got to be willing to use it.
The is taking the "blame the victim" attitude to a grotesque end. The murdered man is responsible for his fate because he was not a ruthless and remorseless enough killer. There is some truth in that, of course.
Interesting. I guessed to somebody earlier today that this is the conclusion the concealed carry folks would make.
I don't think of it as blame but rather a common sense warning to those who feel secure carrying a pointing a gun at people. You must be willing to shoot or this may happen. If you are not comfortable killing a human, you should rethink carrying. This is from a worldly point of view but they are not always wrong.
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Chris
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Chris »

So I guess the guns are just in case a wild deer comes charging down the isle. It would make for a spontaneous fellowship meal!


But unfortunately I don't think that's the case. If they are bringing those to church, I pray their elders are without knowledge of it. A Christian must always love their enemies!
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Josh
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Josh »

Chris wrote:So I guess the guns are just in case a wild deer comes charging down the isle. It would make for a spontaneous fellowship meal!


But unfortunately I don't think that's the case. If they are bringing those to church, I pray their elders are without knowledge of it. A Christian must always love their enemies!
CAs carrying to church is virtually nonexistent.

Now, formerly-conservative groups like the CMC... you’d find this quite often. I would recommend against staging a Sunday morning heist at your local CMC affiliate.
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RZehr
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by RZehr »

According to the poll, one might get away with it at a Southeastern or South Atlantic church.
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Josh
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Re: Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

Post by Josh »

RZehr wrote:According to the poll, one might get away with it at a Southeastern or South Atlantic church.
The poll was not about carrying in church...
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