Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

[Ken]

[
Where I would disagree with you is that this is more than just "mouthing pieties". Teachers set the tone in a classroom and students follow their lead. A teacher who refuses to acknowledge the sexuality of an LGBT child is inviting other children to follow their lead and do so in much more cruel ways. You are inviting teachers to make their classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific students. I think that is wrong.

And I would be equally concerned that the teacher is using that influence to perpetuate evil by pushing this agenda upon students and society. It is, as you say, inviting teachers to make the classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific Christian students. Who will be subject to other students following their lead and cruelly ostracize Christian students for their beliefs.

It seems like you're moving towards an unavoidable logical conclusion that Christians with convictions about these things cannot work in these public institutions.

Not at all. There are millions of Christians who work in the public schools and there always have been. The vast majority who see absolutely no conflict between their faith and professional duties. Those who raise legal objections to their professional duties on religions grounds represent the tiniest infinitesimal fraction of the total.

[nett]

And I would be equally concerned that the teacher is using that influence to perpetuate evil by pushing this agenda upon students and society. It is, as you say, inviting teachers to make the classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific Christian students. Who will be subject to other students following their lead and cruelly ostracize Christian students for their beliefs.

It seems like you're moving towards an unavoidable logical conclusion that Christians with convictions about these things cannot work in these public institutions.

Not at all. There are millions of Christians who work in the public schools and there always have been. The vast majority who see absolutely no conflict between their faith and professional duties. Those who raise legal objections to their professional duties on religions grounds represent the tiniest infinitesimal fraction of the total.

I think that says more about the state of western Christianity than anything.

[temporal1]

nett:
I think that says more about the state of western Christianity than anything.

Agreed. It’s not just Christians. Christians are routinely targeted. Easy targets.

Tone deaf bullies do as they please, ignore insults+harm done to others.
But, yes, many now claim Christianity while embracing/normalizing, even celebrating sin, so, yeah, it’s a mess.

i’ve long been intrigued with the way lots of students come to the U.S. from all over the world for education; somehow, unlike U.S. citizen students who tend to be raped by gov-promoted anti-family, anti-faith agenda, foreign students seem better prepared to retain their respect and love of their families, cultures, faith. i find it remarkable.

i’ve always lived in seriously mixed cultural areas, all my life, this was true in the 50’s, it’s still true. i’m impressed!

[Ken]

Where I would disagree with you is that this is more than just "mouthing pieties". Teachers set the tone in a classroom and students follow their lead. A teacher who refuses to acknowledge the sexuality of an LGBT child is inviting other children to follow their lead and do so in much more cruel ways. You are inviting teachers to make their classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific students. I think that is wrong.

Yes, this is where we disagree then. Though I will try to lay out a positive case for my rationale and how I might handle said issues in my classroom:
1. Topics of LGBT should not be discussed in elementary/middle school classrooms in a formal way as part of the curriculum. They may be discussed in an academic and dispassionate way in high school in certain classes. e.g. I discuss transgenderism and notions of human sexuality in my philosophy course for seniors as part of a broader conversation about what it means to be human and how one arrives at, philosophically-speaking, an affirmation of or a denial of, transgenderism. I cannot though think of a reason that topics of gender and sexuality might need to be discussed in an Algebra course.
2. If said topics do come up in an informal way e.g. A student mentions his 2 fathers, that can be acknowledged without having it lead to a discourse on the glories of gay pride. It is nonsensical to think of a pre-pubescent child as possessing a sexuality and so the question of my affirmation of or denial of their non-existant sexuality, is moot.
3. I can affirm and respect all students without ever referring to their sexuality and I cannot imagine a situation where I might have to unless they "came out" to me. That happened just recently to my wife and I at the same time. The student knows we are both Christian and hold to traditional notions of sex and gender but we nevertheless let her know that we care for and respect her.
4. Transgenderism is a different animal though from sexuality and it makes little sense, except for purposes of political expediency, to lump them in with the LGB crowd.
5. To accept someone as gay as to accept that they have sexual desires in a particular direction. I can do that without having to speak an un-truth; unless of course I am required to affirm or state that homosexuality is no different, in any meaningful way, from heterosexuality.
6. To accept someone as Trans we are told, one must use their pronouns and new name. It is to affirm that sex and gender are distinct notions, that one can change one's gender, that one can have no gender in any meaningful sense or that one is what they say they are despite all evidence to the contrary.
7. In my affirmation I am tacitly admitting all of these propositions - essentially mouthing current sexually progressive pieties that no one believed ten minutes ago. Telegraphing to the trans student as well as the rest of the class that said notions are true, even though in my core, I know them to be false.
8. I want to be respectful of all of my students but I cannot knowingly lie about who they are as a person. So I will have to find a way to thread that needle.
9. For Jade that wanted to be Boris, I simply told her that on the official role and legally, she was listed as Jade and that's what I would continue to do. It prompted no backlash from the student, no other student was privy to that conversation so bullying was preempted and as far as I can tell, our teacher-student relationship has not suffered.
10. I can understand a concern for safety - that though is not my highest value as either a person or a teacher.

I don't really disagree with what you wrote. But I would expand it to include all topics, not just LGBT issues, which frankly almost never comes up in my science classes.

I will, on occasion allow a small bit of off-topic chit chat during class, but rarely and I keep it limited. More common off-topic discussion subjects are sports, race, and politics, and sometimes current events. In Waco it was Baylor and the Cowboys. In Washington it is mostly the Seahawks. Race came up in Texas mostly with respect to the Confederate flag and whether it was racist. And politics pretty much every election. Some teachers wear their politics on their sleeves and generally wind up alienating half their students as a result. My daughter's band teacher is a die-hard Republican who still has his Trump stickers on his car and who on occasion goes on anti-mask diatribes during class. He's lost the respect of about half his students as a result. ultra-liberal teachers who can't keep their politics out of the classroom do the same thing. I keep my political opinions to myself in the classroom and won't even put any bumper stickers or such on my car for that reason. And during the election if students really really want to pry an opinion out of me I will say something like: "The issues that are most important to me are science and scientific exploration and research, protecting the environment, K-12 and university public education, and a prosperous economy that provides all Americans with an opportunity to succeed rather than just the few." Why don't you do some research and tell me which candidate or party best matches my priorities." and leave it at that.

I don't really have any strong opinions about how, when, and where human sexuality and topics of discrimination should be addressed in school curriculum. Its not what I teach and so I don't pay it much attention. But I think teachers should adhere to their curriculum guidelines and generally avoid going off tangent, regardless of the topic. The only times I have ever actually gone way off topic is when current events compels it. When I was teaching aquatic science in 2005 and Hurricane Katrina happened we set our freshwater ecology unit aside and spent 2 weeks on hurricanes. When the Japanese tsunami happened I took the opportunity to do an ad-hoc unit on tsunamis. And March 2020 during the start of Covid (before the schools went virtual) I did an ad-hoc unit on virology and pandemics.

So no, I don't think ordinary teachers should be getting very far into LGBT issues or any other issues of sexuality if it is not part of their curriculum. But if it is, they should teach it as directed in, for example, health classes. These curriculum issues are fought out in great detail depth at the state level and at the community level in school boards where they vote on which curriculum to adopt. And parents and students are free to opt-out if they choose. If a particular health teacher objects to the curriculum they have been assigned to teach they should find a different position rather than "freelancing" in one direction or the other.

In reality transgender issues rarely ever comes up, at least for me. In 17 years of teaching it has only come up 3 times in my classes. Once in Waco TX where I got an email from the school counselor informing me that I was getting a new student who identified as male rather than female as on the class roster. And that this student went by "____" name instead of the female name on the roster. And that he was to be further accommodated by allowing him the use of the staff bathroom (to which he was given a key) rather than the student bathrooms. I said fine, made a handwritten note on the class roster as I do for all other students who use different names, and thought nothing of it after that. I don't even remember his/her names anymore.

A second time it came up at my last district here in WA and it was a boy who was identifying as a girl. Again, I got a similar directive from the school administration, made a note of it, and carried on as they requested. Most recently last year I had a rather tomboyish female student inform me that she went by the name "Max" rather than the "Melissa" on the class roster. Again fine. I made a note of it and that was that. I'm happy to treat her the same as any other student and use her preferred name. I don't think any of these three students were actually on hormone treatments. At least to my eye they weren't. But then as a teacher I'm not privy to their medical files anyway so I wouldn't know and it didn't really matter. Most students in TX and WA were either supportive or just apathetic and really didn't care one way or the other. It just isn't a big deal in this day and age. Personally I find the whole pronoun thing to be annoying liberal performative nonsense for the most part. Just like the term Latin-x which my Hispanic wife despises and no one in Latin America uses except maybe in a few college campuses. But if a student gives me a specific request I'll try to remember and accommodate them but I sometimes or often forget [shrug].

I have, however, had quite a number of gay students over the years, both boys and girls who were ordinary gay and not transgender. Again, no big deal. Some were popular, some were not. Some were outgoing and some were shy. Pretty much like every other ordinary student. Again, students are generally either supportive or apathetic. It is just no big deal. I have, however, on occasion had to deal with bullying of gay students and had to put an immediate stop to it. In this particular case the bully was a big jock type who was sitting in the desk next to the gay student and he would constantly voice anti-gay opinions and slurs to himself just loud enough for those around him to hear. When I caught him I pulled him into the hall and told him "Look, we don't do that here. You need to keep your opinions to yourself" to which he responded innocently "huh? I don't know what you are talking about" and to which I replied: "I think you do. What you are doing is considered bullying and harassment. And let me lay out for you what happens if it doesn't stop. There will be a complaint filed against you with the school administration. Your parents will get called in. And you will find yourself in a disciplinary meeting with your parents and the school assistant principal where you will have to explain yourself, and they will decide where things go from there. So if that is what you want, keep it up. If not, then zip it up and behave in class like I know you know how to" I never had a problem with him again.

I have also had a lot of conservative Christian students in my classes over the years. Especially in Waco which is Baptist-land. But also plenty in WA too. And I have never once perceived that any of them were threatened or bullied about their beliefs. I think that is something adults worry about more than kids. This whole pronoun and name business might come up infrequently for teachers who actually have to address kids when they take roll, call on them, grade their papers, etc. But it never really comes up for kids who don't want it to. Your typical HS kid can go through the whole school day and barely speak a word to any other student if they choose to, and some do. The jock kids studiously ignore the computer coder geek kids. The hop-hop kids studiously ignore the country music kids. The popular fashionable girls studiously ignore the goth and emo girls. The Mormon kids ignore the Baptist kids. And so forth. Kids find their own groups and really don't do very much interaction beyond that. Often don't even know each other's names outside their small circles. Especially at a big school.

[Josh]

The idea that children have a sexuality that needs to be acknowledged is absurd. Children are not sexual. And they are definitely not homosexual.

People who claim little children have homosexual desires are revealing themselves to be perverts and pedophiles.

[Ken]

The idea that children have a sexuality that needs to be acknowledged is absurd. Children are not sexual. And they are definitely not homosexual.

People who claim little children have homosexual desires are revealing themselves to be perverts and pedophiles.

We are talking about mostly middle school and high school students. I believe the teacher who spawned this recent subthread was an 8th grade middle school teacher in Kansas. If you think middle school and high school students are not aware of their sexuality you are naïve beyond belief. They are, of course, not all sexually active. But they are certainly aware of sexuality and the opposite sex (or same sex as the case may be). That is what many of them actually spend most of their time thinking about. That is the age group (and mostly HS and beyond not middle school) that is mostly involved with things like pronouns and gender fluidity.

Need I remind you that this is the age group that within many conservative Anabaptist communities actually get aged out of school and get thrown into the adult working after 8th grade. So apparently much of the CA community believes that these kids have reached the level of maturity for independent working lives. I would suggest that if you are mature enough to be done with school and move into the adult workforce then you are mature enough to be aware of your own sexuality.

[Josh]

The idea children can be “gay” is ridiculous. The only people who support such an idea are perverts who want to abuse them.

A child claiming to be gay is a serious red flag for abuse - which is what 99% of adult gay men report happened to them.

[Ken]

The idea children can be “gay” is ridiculous. The only people who support such an idea are perverts who want to abuse them.

A child claiming to be gay is a serious red flag for abuse - which is what 99% of adult gay men report happened to them.

99%?

Do you always just make stuff up out of thin air?

[temporal1]

And I would be equally concerned that the teacher is using that influence to perpetuate evil by pushing this agenda upon students and society. It is, as you say, inviting teachers to make the classroom into an unsafe and unwelcome place for specific Christian students.

Who will be subject to other students following their lead and
cruelly ostracize Christian students for their beliefs.

It seems like you're moving towards an unavoidable logical conclusion that Christians with convictions about these things cannot work in these public institutions.

Not at all.
There are millions of Christians who work in the public schools and there always have been.
The vast majority who see absolutely no conflict between their faith and professional duties.

Those who raise legal objections to their professional duties on religions grounds represent
the tiniest infinitesimal fraction of the total.

If Ken is anywhere-near correct here, this is “the best news ever” for (more “orthodox”) Christians, who should now look forward to special benefits in current western human courts of law!

The legal+social bonanza of being a designated minority.

Over+over, courts favor MINORITY RULE. Organized political blocs have been formed for no other purpose: power+greed.
The majority is deemed inherently wrong, forced by the sword to step aside for minority beliefs, interests, promotion, special protections, et al.! It’s better than winning any Lottery.

By decimating Christianity, the “hapless perpetual minority” has created a new minority. Step aside, the new minority is here.

Ken does a very good job of describing how this is unfolding in gov schools, where “everyone knows,” “everyone believes,” “everyone does,” “everyone thinks” as he does - the current unquestioned prideful bullying majority. i see what he describes IRL, he does not exaggerate. it is as bad as he claims. his views are not extraordinary, they’re common. conform, or you’re out.

The bullied become the bullies.

[HondurasKeiser]

The idea children can be “gay” is ridiculous. The only people who support such an idea are perverts who want to abuse them.

A child claiming to be gay is a serious red flag for abuse - which is what 99% of adult gay men report happened to them.

99%?

Do you always just make stuff up out of thin air?

To clarify, the student that "came out" to my wife and I recently is a senior in high school, and ready to head to college. She's 18. No one ought to consider that age-group as "children".