Do Reformed Anabaptists exist?

[Soloist]

Wife: I appreciate what Neto said. I grew up basically hearing both applications for TULIP/once saved always saved, either that if you fall away you were never saved to begin with or that after you pray the prayer, it doesn’t matter how you live. I probably fell into the first camp, and it caused me a lot of doubts, because I would pray the prayer, but my life didn’t reflect it, and if I was actively striving to apply it myself, it suddenly becomes a works based salvation, because it’s supposed to be the Holy Spirit doing all the work, so does that mean that I don’t have the Holy Spirit, and maybe wasn’t sincere enough, and back to praying the prayer again hoping something would change this time. I don’t know if that was actually the proper teaching from the church I attended or just the interpretation by a confused teenager/youth.

I’ve also talked to certain groups of Baptists that are hard-core tulip in the second category, and it seems from what they’ve told me, they believe that if somebody prayed the prayer sincerely as a child, later decides to reject God and become an atheist, etc., God would be lying if He took away their salvation, but I am in danger of mine being taken away just because I believe that Jesus’ teachings were relevant, even though I don’t believe that following those is what saves me, just that out of love I should obey Him. (I do believe we still make mistakes as Christians and continually need God’s forgiveness).

As for predestination, my personal take is that both that and free will can be true. God knows ahead of time the decisions we’re going to make, although it does say that He calls all to repentance. Also, in the case of Pharaoh, it seems to say for the first several plagues, he hardened his own heart, and at some point, God started hardening his heart.

I think several of the conservative Mennonite churches I have attended might not have an issue with you ascribing to some TULIP theology, providing that you aren’t actively trying to convince everybody else that they are wrong. It’s not really meant to take away your right to believe what you want, just probably them wondering why you would want to be part of them if you so strongly oppose their stance on it. They would think you were trying to change them into your model of the perfect church or sheep steal.

There are some doctrines at my church that I don’t personally believe the same way they do, and they are fine with as long as I don’t actively make a big deal about arguing it (not like I’m preaching anyway )

[Soloist]

I don’t think most Reformed folks believe someone can continue in sin and never be lost despite the many warnings in the Scriptures.

If that is the case, that most do not belief this, then this is a big shift since the reformation.

Most folks I’ve encountered, including myself, would say those people were demonstrating they were never saved to begin with. Where there’s fire there’s heat, and so we expect that where there’s saving faith, we would expect that such a person would evidence this faith with good works.

We agree with the last sentence, not necessarily the first. We have people who come to us from Reformed settings who were saved and living for Jesus, who then walked away from Jesus into sin and did not repent. While they were sinning, they were told by Reformed folks that they did not have eternal life (which we agree with) and that they never had eternal life (which we do not agree with). These folks know that they had eternal life since they lived in holiness and obedience and had sweet fellowship with God. And they know that they walked away from God when they went back to their sins and had no desire to repent of them. When they come back to God, the Reformed folks tell them they were never saved. But they know better.
Reformed theology is very confusing and harmful to such people.

We believe that Reformed theology was a creation by the Reformers. Not something the apostles taught or tolerated.

Thanks for chiming in. How do Anabaptists interpret verses such as those found in Matthew 7:22-25, the many who were self deceived workers of lawlessness or iniquity, who do not the will of the Father?

I'd also love to hear more from you about how Anabaptists who don't practice mutual aid reckon with verses such as 1 John 3:17, 2 Corinthians 8, Acts 2, Acts 4, or just the simple commands from Jesus Christ our LORD who speaks of going with someone two miles who compels you to go with them one, etc.

Thanks in advance! I'm learning a lot from all of you about Anabaptist perspectives on these topics.

Wife: for the verse at the end of the sermon on the mount, the general belief is that Jesus laid out a bunch of teachings in His sermon, and He compared those who heard His words and followed them to people building their house on the rock, and those who heard His words and did not follow them to those building their house on the sand. First Corinthians 13 seems to imply that you can do a lot of stuff, not having love, making it worthless. Maybe some of the guys can give a better explanation on the Anabaptist viewpoint.

The churches I’m at do mutual aid, for which I am extremely grateful. This means helping out with pregnancy, hospital bills, even with housing, etc. at times.

They would believe that going the 2nd mile would be part of nonresistance, and I remember being given money by one of our friends to pay off a medical bill, being told that they did not expect the money back, although they did end up getting it back, once financial aid finally kicked in.

Not everybody actually ends up practicing the teachings, but it does seem to be part of Anabaptist theology to go the 2nd mile, and be willing to be wronged rather than fight for rights, etc.

[Soloist]

Wife: As a sidenote, I think you would do well to get in contact with some Anabaptist communities, because as helpful as Mennonet can be sometimes, it does not always accurately reflect Anabaptist values, and the nature of online forums in general can end up with unnecessary discouragement from constant debating and the temptation for people to be ruder to faceless usernames than they would in person. I actually know very few people in real life that use Mennonet because of the divisiveness that can sometimes pop up.

Doesn’t mean it’s always the case, and there have been a lot of good things that we’ve gotten out of it, but I just wanted to let you know that you might get a completely different feel from visiting an anabaptist community than you would see from a forum.

[Esdras]

Wife: As a sidenote, I think you would do well to get in contact with some Anabaptist communities, because as helpful as Mennonet can be sometimes, it does not always accurately reflect Anabaptist values, and the nature of online forums in general can end up with unnecessary discouragement from constant debating and the temptation for people to be ruder to faceless usernames than they would in person. I actually know very few people in real life that use Mennonet because of the divisiveness that can sometimes pop up.

Doesn’t mean it’s always the case, and there have been a lot of good things that we’ve gotten out of it, but I just wanted to let you know that you might get a completely different feel from visiting an anabaptist community than you would see from a forum.

Much appreciated, Brother and Sister! We see a similar phenomena in Reformed circles with PuritanBoard.

If you (or others!) have recommendations for congregations close to us here in Greenville, SC; we would be quite willing to contact and visit with communities, particularly those that practice mutual aid and may have the ability to house guest families, as we’re presently in a fairly dire financial situation that would preclude us from paying for lodging and that sort of thing.

[JohnH]

Thanks for chiming in. How do Anabaptists interpret verses such as those found in Matthew 7:22-25, the many who were self deceived workers of lawlessness or iniquity, who do not the will of the Father?

I'd also love to hear more from you about how Anabaptists who don't practice mutual aid reckon with verses such as 1 John 3:17, 2 Corinthians 8, Acts 2, Acts 4, or just the simple commands from Jesus Christ our LORD who speaks of going with someone two miles who compels you to go with them one, etc.

Thanks in advance! I'm learning a lot from all of you about Anabaptist perspectives on these topics.

Less conservative Anabaptists would debate you exactly as would a Methodist, Pentecostal, etc who doesn't hold to eternal security/limited atonement.

More conservative / traditional Anabaptists don’t debate in a fundamentalist+modernist style using specific verses and proof texting.

Almost all Anabaptists practice mutual aid to some degree.

[JohnH]

Much appreciated, Brother and Sister! We see a similar phenomena in Reformed circles with PuritanBoard.

I can’t even join PuritanBoard because they require you to affirm a Reformed confession first and then list your church membership. Very exclusive. MennoNet doesn’t do any of that.

If you (or others!) have recommendations for congregations close to us here in Greenville, SC; we would be quite willing to contact and visit with communities, particularly those that practice mutual aid and may have the ability to house guest families, as we’re presently in a fairly dire financial situation that would preclude us from paying for lodging and that sort of thing.

I took a vacation a number of years ago to Greenville.

I had a lovely Saturday evening with a family at Pickens Mennonite Church, spent the night there, and worshipped with them. They had a carry in meal at someone’s house and I went there too.

Well worth a visit.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Now, just in case no one else mentions it, there is a group called the "Reformed Mennonites." In the sense of the discussion here, they are not Reformed, but rather a Mennonite group called the Herrites. They felt Mennonite discipline was lax, so they split. They are a "One True Church" group and are almost extinct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Mennonite

[Judas Maccabeus]

I’m just genuinely surprised that Reformed thinking (from a soteriological perspective) and Anabaptist or Pietistic living (from a practical perspective) has never existed.

Someone in an Anabaptist church who thinks that once Jesus has saved them and they are following Jesus who then thinks that no matter how much they choose to sin, they could never ever possibly be lost again, would be viewed as a very confused person in need of spiritual help and guidance. (Eternal Security or Perserverance of the Saints)

Someone in an Anabaptist church who thinks God creates some people who will never, ever be able to accept Jesus' gift and follow Jesus would also be viewed as a quite demented person. (Double Predestination)

Anabaptists also don't believe in infant baptism, rather obviously. Calvinists generally do. Anabaptists don't believe that one's family is automatically elect; Calvinists generally do and hence why they feel comfortable practicing infant baptism as some kind of "covenant symbol" to replace circumcision.

It’s very, very, very rare in the history of the Church for some well meaning brother or sister to come by with a new idea. So I have a deep, abiding and hopefully healthy suspicion that I would be numbered among the first folk to try to puzzle out how these two big beautiful branches of the Reformation might intersect.

Most Anabaptists would consider Calvinism an ugly heresy polluting the church, not a "beautiful branch". It is at complete odds with the entire basis of Anabaptism.

I can’t imagine what a difficult choice some Anabaptist brothers would have laid before them, because Anabaptist practices seem to be quite a seven day a week, day in day out sort of thing (and I write this to the glory of God, I think it’s a tremendously positive thing).

Is there really no community anywhere on the planet where the TULIP and BASIN coexist?

There was in Zurich for about 2 years from 1525-1527, I guess?

The notion that a well meaning Anabaptist brother might come to privately hold to the doctrines of grace and yet have no place to lay his head on the planet where he could live in community while practicing his faith openly seems deeply tragic.

Why would it be deeply tragic? Anabaptists consider Calvinism false doctrine, starting in 1527 when Anabaptism first was birthed, and Reformed people were busy trying to persecute Anabaptists, tossing them in rivers to drown, pursuing them and forcing them to hold secret meetings, exiling them from cities, and generally trying to exterminate them.

To make matters more interesting, they formerly anathematize us in 1559, in one of the Three Forms of Unity, the Belgic confession, Article 34. This gave justifacation to the burnings, drownings and brandings that followed. Interestingly, they were carried out mostly by state power

[Esdras]

I’m just genuinely surprised that Reformed thinking (from a soteriological perspective) and Anabaptist or Pietistic living (from a practical perspective) has never existed.

Someone in an Anabaptist church who thinks that once Jesus has saved them and they are following Jesus who then thinks that no matter how much they choose to sin, they could never ever possibly be lost again, would be viewed as a very confused person in need of spiritual help and guidance. (Eternal Security or Perserverance of the Saints)

Someone in an Anabaptist church who thinks God creates some people who will never, ever be able to accept Jesus' gift and follow Jesus would also be viewed as a quite demented person. (Double Predestination)

Anabaptists also don't believe in infant baptism, rather obviously. Calvinists generally do. Anabaptists don't believe that one's family is automatically elect; Calvinists generally do and hence why they feel comfortable practicing infant baptism as some kind of "covenant symbol" to replace circumcision.

It’s very, very, very rare in the history of the Church for some well meaning brother or sister to come by with a new idea. So I have a deep, abiding and hopefully healthy suspicion that I would be numbered among the first folk to try to puzzle out how these two big beautiful branches of the Reformation might intersect.

Most Anabaptists would consider Calvinism an ugly heresy polluting the church, not a "beautiful branch". It is at complete odds with the entire basis of Anabaptism.

I can’t imagine what a difficult choice some Anabaptist brothers would have laid before them, because Anabaptist practices seem to be quite a seven day a week, day in day out sort of thing (and I write this to the glory of God, I think it’s a tremendously positive thing).

Is there really no community anywhere on the planet where the TULIP and BASIN coexist?

There was in Zurich for about 2 years from 1525-1527, I guess?

The notion that a well meaning Anabaptist brother might come to privately hold to the doctrines of grace and yet have no place to lay his head on the planet where he could live in community while practicing his faith openly seems deeply tragic.

Why would it be deeply tragic? Anabaptists consider Calvinism false doctrine, starting in 1527 when Anabaptism first was birthed, and Reformed people were busy trying to persecute Anabaptists, tossing them in rivers to drown, pursuing them and forcing them to hold secret meetings, exiling them from cities, and generally trying to exterminate them.

To make matters more interesting, they formerly anathematize us in 1559, in one of the Three Forms of Unity, the Belgic confession, Article 34. This gave justifacation to the burnings, drownings and brandings that followed. Interestingly, they were carried out mostly by state power

I have read about some of these tragic, abominable activities in Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, Trail of Blood, as well as volumes in the series 2,000 Years of Christ’s Power.

I am so sorry these things happened to your early spiritual forebears.

[Soloist]

Wife: As a sidenote, I think you would do well to get in contact with some Anabaptist communities, because as helpful as Mennonet can be sometimes, it does not always accurately reflect Anabaptist values, and the nature of online forums in general can end up with unnecessary discouragement from constant debating and the temptation for people to be ruder to faceless usernames than they would in person. I actually know very few people in real life that use Mennonet because of the divisiveness that can sometimes pop up.

Doesn’t mean it’s always the case, and there have been a lot of good things that we’ve gotten out of it, but I just wanted to let you know that you might get a completely different feel from visiting an anabaptist community than you would see from a forum.

Much appreciated, Brother and Sister! We see a similar phenomena in Reformed circles with PuritanBoard.

If you (or others!) have recommendations for congregations close to us here in Greenville, SC; we would be quite willing to contact and visit with communities, particularly those that practice mutual aid and may have the ability to house guest families, as we’re presently in a fairly dire financial situation that would preclude us from paying for lodging and that sort of thing.

Wife: you can use https://churchindex.org to search in your area. I looked, and in a 50 mile radius, there are 8 Mennonite chuches listed, including unaffiliated, BMA (Biblical mennonite alliance), Beachy Amish, and Nationwide. Nationwide would probably not like the idea of working a tech job, not sure if Beachy is on the conservative or more relaxed end, and BMA would be more likely to not require cape dresses or capps, but would wear skirts/dresses/veils on their women. You can get phone numbers on the website and ask more detailed questions. The church JohnH mentioned is unnaffiliated, so I don't know their stances. Some of the unaffiliated/BMA allow homeschooling. Don't know their stances on mutual aid, maybe someone else does. I know Nationwide, a lot of beachys, and some unaffiliated do it in regards to medical ect. All of them would likely be able to set you up with lodging though, since hospitality seems to be a big thing among Mennonites. We got 3 lunch invitations our first Sunday visiting a BMA church, and have stayed in many homes across the country with Mennonites, Amish, and other Anabaptist churches when we are on trips.