Living with different views on voting

[GaryK]

I feel uncomfortable when someone "urges me to vote", because I don't believe I should, and I don't like to tell them so, because it causes conflict, and I don't like conflict.

As far as I can tell, nobody on MN has urged others to vote. And I think the vast majority of us agree that we should not urge someone to vote for a specific candidate.

That's really, really important. Here's something I don't get: when I or others say we think the Bible does not specifically speak to this and it is a question of different applications we make, some people keep hearing that we are urging them to vote. We're not. Why is this misperception so persistent?

Is this just an assumption you are making. I certainly have never felt like you or anyone else who votes are urging the rest of us to vote. And I certainly didn't pick that up from anyone else who holds to the no-voting position.

[Bootstrap]

I feel uncomfortable when someone "urges me to vote", because I don't believe I should, and I don't like to tell them so, because it causes conflict, and I don't like conflict.

As far as I can tell, nobody on MN has urged others to vote. And I think the vast majority of us agree that we should not urge someone to vote for a specific candidate.

That's really, really important. Here's something I don't get: when I or others say we think the Bible does not specifically speak to this and it is a question of different applications we make, some people keep hearing that we are urging them to vote. We're not. Why is this misperception so persistent?

Is this just an assumption you are making.

I thought Neto was saying someone has urged people to vote. And I think I have seen that claim before, more than once. I have even seen people claim I was urging people to vote for specific candidates on MN. So I want to make sure people realize I am not doing that.

Neto can clarify whether he thought that was happening or not.

I certainly have never felt like you or anyone else who votes are urging the rest of us to vote. And I certainly didn't pick that up from anyone else who holds to the no-voting position.

Thanks. That's my impression, too.

[ken_sylvania]

I thought Neto was saying someone has urged people to vote. And I think I have seen that claim before, more than once. I have even seen people claim I was urging people to vote for specific candidates on MN. So I want to make sure people realize I am not doing that.

Neto can clarify whether he thought that was happening or not.

I think the most logical interpretation of Neto's post is that he's referring to IRL interactions not conversations on this forum. He talks about "people who are very close to [him]" who think he ought to support a specific candidate. It's hard to see his comment as referring to Mennonet interactions.

[Josh]

Because the Bible and Jesus are what tell us what is right or wrong, and now all are called to repent and obey the gospel.

Perhaps you should show where the Bible says "don't vote in elections" in the following thread:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

That thread is specifically about the biblical basis for our positions. Is it really a biblical command, or is it like the rules the Pharisees added to the Bible, giving their rules the same authority as Scripture? That's exactly what we are exploring here:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

I believe it is clearly shown in scripture we shouldn’t vote for Commander in Chief.

[GaryK]

I thought Neto was saying someone has urged people to vote. And I think I have seen that claim before, more than once. I have even seen people claim I was urging people to vote for specific candidates on MN. So I want to make sure people realize I am not doing that.

Neto can clarify whether he thought that was happening or not.

I think the most logical interpretation of Neto's post is that he's referring to IRL interactions not conversations on this forum. He talks about "people who are very close to [him]" who think he ought to support a specific candidate. It's hard to see his comment as referring to Mennonet interactions.

That's how I took it as well when I first read Neto's post.

[Bootstrap]

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

I believe it is clearly shown in scripture we shouldn’t vote for Commander in Chief.

Look at the link above.

Good place to make your case. Quote the Scriptures. Show the clear line from what Scripture says to not voting for President. Repeating the same claim over and over again doesn't really do that.

[Bootstrap]

I thought Neto was saying someone has urged people to vote. And I think I have seen that claim before, more than once. I have even seen people claim I was urging people to vote for specific candidates on MN. So I want to make sure people realize I am not doing that.

Neto can clarify whether he thought that was happening or not.

I think the most logical interpretation of Neto's post is that he's referring to IRL interactions not conversations on this forum. He talks about "people who are very close to [him]" who think he ought to support a specific candidate. It's hard to see his comment as referring to Mennonet interactions.

That would make sense.

Neto, could you please clarify what you meant?

[Neto]

I feel uncomfortable when someone "urges me to vote", because I don't believe I should, and I don't like to tell them so, because it causes conflict, and I don't like conflict.

As far as I can tell, nobody on MN has urged others to vote. And I think the vast majority of us agree that we should not urge someone to vote for a specific candidate.

That's really, really important. Here's something I don't get: when I or others say we think the Bible does not specifically speak to this and it is a question of different applications we make, some people keep hearing that we are urging them to vote. We're not. Why is this misperception so persistent?

The two positions I see, with a few variations, are:

1. The Bible prohibits voting
1.a. ... and it's idolatry
1.b. ... and if someone votes, they are not a believer
1.c. ... and it's a clear command that should be obvious to anyone who wants to follow Scripture

versus

2. The Bible does not specifically speak to voting at all, whether to vote is a matter of conscience
1.a. ... and ambassadors actually do try to influence governments of other kingdoms
1.b. ... and Paul invoked his citizenship three times

There's a whole thread exploring the biblical basis for this and other topics here:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

This thread is not about that, it's about how we talk with each other across divisions like this one. Can Christians act as brothers across these two positions? How do we best do that?

I was making a very general reference when I mentioned that about someone urging me to vote, not about anyone or anything on this forum. That was a reference to face-to-face conversations with friends here in my community, perhaps mostly in my local congregation. Some are very politically oriented, and knowing that I have very conservative values, they want me to vote. (Some are family members as well.)

I do not see how voting can be a 'gray area'. That's why I commented about the quandary of needing (Scripturally) to do some urging, but at the same time, not wanting to. And, that others feel the need to urge me, but in the opposite direction. This is my response to your question: "How do we talk to one another about this?" If we can do that and neither BE offended, nor offend the other, then we can work toward understanding the other person's position. (I Do understand it - that's where I used to 'live'. But as I said, perhaps elsewhere, I still have that urge to go back there - all of that is still in me; but I resist, not only against my own desires, but against the 'urging' that comes from my friends 'on the other side of the isle'.)

[Josh]

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

I believe it is clearly shown in scripture we shouldn’t vote for Commander in Chief.

Look at the link above.

Good place to make your case. Quote the Scriptures. Show the clear line from what Scripture says to not voting for President. Repeating the same claim over and over again doesn't really do that.

The Bible makes it pretty clear not to kill people. I don’t think choosing a military chieftain who commands armies and orders extrajudicial assassinations is a good way to follow Jesus telling us not to kill people.

I also don’t think I’ll be able to convince you of this.

[Bootstrap]

This thread is not about that, it's about how we talk with each other across divisions like this one. Can Christians act as brothers across these two positions? How do we best do that?

I was making a very general reference when I mentioned that about someone urging me to vote, not about anyone or anything on this forum. That was a reference to face-to-face conversations with friends here in my community, perhaps mostly in my local congregation. Some are very politically oriented, and knowing that I have very conservative values, they want me to vote. (Some are family members as well.)

Thanks for the clarification.

I do not see how voting can be a 'gray area'. That's why I commented about the quandary of needing (Scripturally) to do some urging, but at the same time, not wanting to. And, that others feel the need to urge me, but in the opposite direction. This is my response to your question: "How do we talk to one another about this?" If we can do that and neither BE offended, nor offend the other, then we can work toward understanding the other person's position. (I Do understand it - that's where I used to 'live'. But as I said, perhaps elsewhere, I still have that urge to go back there - all of that is still in me; but I resist, not only against my own desires, but against the 'urging' that comes from my friends 'on the other side of the isle'.)

Well, exactly.

Except ... it's hard to guarantee that I won't offend the other. That's up to the other. And I'd rather not say "whoever is most loudly offended gets to win every debate", that doesn't seem wise either. I don't want to cause my brother to stumble, but stumbling means falling away from the Lord, not taking offense. The Pharisees took offense at all kinds of things, Jesus did not back down because of that. Neither did Paul with Peter.

If it's really a "disputable matter", then it's a matter that we are likely to dispute, which inherently means that people on both sides think that they are right and the other is wrong. I don't think there's any getting around that.

I'd start here: My opinion is not the Bible, and I am not God. Same holds for everyone else. We all have strong biases, we all get emotional, we are all often in denial about that.

And here: Let's focus on the heart of what Scripture teaches most clearly.