Ephesians 5: "Shameful even to speak"

[Szdfan]

If some Christians call you a Pharisee and you don't feel in your heart that you are, why should you or anyone else conclude that other Christians are guilty of Phariseeism when they don't feel in their heart that they are?

Paul writes about testing the spirits, which I think can be aptly applied to the matter of criticism. Criticism can undergo scrutiny to determine the intention behind it and whether it describes with truth an issue or behavior that needs correction. The validity of criticism or comparing Christians to Pharisees isn't determined by what someone believes in their heart.

Christians can mess up. Churches can mess up. The Bible is filled with stories about how God's people got it wrong.

[GaryK]

Of course there were no Christians at the time of Jesus and Jesus himself was a Jew.

Which is why I said followers of Jesus. Many of the Jews followed Jesus before He died and before His followers were called Christians.

I figured you were doing that, but I'm not sure the text is making the distinction you are. If the Pharisees have absolutely nothing to do with the followers of Jesus, why include them in the text? If they're irrelevant, than why are they there?

I think that on one level, the Pharisees serve as a negative example or a warning of what zealous faith without grace looks like. The Scriptures aren't just the story of the faithfulness of God's people, they are also the story where God's people go wrong.

The Pharisees believed that Israel was in a special convenant relationship with God and in following the Law. Yet in their zeal, they missed the work that God was doing right in front of them. I think this is very relevant to faith today.

I'm not sure what text you are referring to.

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure there view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

[GaryK]

If some Christians call you a Pharisee and you don't feel in your heart that you are, why should you or anyone else conclude that other Christians are guilty of Phariseeism when they don't feel in their heart that they are?

Paul writes about testing the spirits, which I think can be aptly applied to the matter of criticism. Criticism can undergo scrutiny to determine the intention behind it and whether it describes with truth an issue or behavior that needs correction. The validity of criticism or comparing Christians to Pharisees isn't determined by what someone believes in their heart.

Christians can mess up. Churches can mess up. The Bible is filled with stories about how God's people got it wrong.

What is a Pharisee today?

[Franklin]

I think Philippians tells us where our minds need to dwell:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I would like to think on such things, but I can't find any.

[Valerie]

I think Philippians tells us where our minds need to dwell:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

I would like to think on such things, but I can't find any.

Franklin, it's all there when you read God's Word. Old and New Testament.

[Grace]

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure their view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Well said. When pointing the finger at other Christians, calling them Pharisees, there are three fingers pointing back at oneself.

[Valerie]

I was simply making the point that Christians calling other Christians Pharisees seems pointless because if everyone can be called a Pharisee by someone else and everyone is sure their view of what a Pharisee is, is correct, then the word Pharisee has little meaning.

Well said. When pointing the finger at other Christians, calling them Pharisees, there are three fingers pointing back at oneself.

I will give an example of seeing this. I know a Christian who gets sick of Christians addressing the lgbtq issue. This person is one that will say all people sin, sin is the same, why don't we worry about gluttony, Jesus got more upset at the religious people than the sinners, but I also heard from the same person hatred and I mean they use the word hate, for president Trump. Calling him a liar, they went into such a rant of rage I witnessed I almost couldn't believe my eyes. But the same person feels Christians are like the religious people Jesus was upset about because of their concerns for sharing the truth with the LGBT community- so isn't that an example? Accusing some Christians of being like Pharisees at the same time spewing hatred for at the time president trump?

[Grace]

I will give an example of seeing this. I know a Christian who gets sick of Christians addressing the lgbtq issue. This person is one that will say all people sin, sin is the same, why don't we worry about gluttony, Jesus got more upset at the religious people than the sinners, but I also heard from the same person hatred and I mean they use the word hate, for president Trump. Calling him a liar, they went into such a rant of rage I witnessed I almost couldn't believe my eyes. But the same person feels Christians are like the religious people Jesus was upset about because of their concerns for sharing the truth with the LGBT community- so isn't that an example? Accusing some Christians of being like Pharisees at the same time spewing hatred for at the time president trump?

I get where you are coming from. I have seen good questions asked, like why we aren't spending much time and energy asking how we can explain our own world view to others, or how to love people we disagree with, bringing them into the Kingdom. Yet that concept isn't and wasn't applicable, when it comes to the former president.

[Josh]

The New Testament in the epistles doesn’t spend any time warning about being a “Pharisee”; the closest it gets is in Galatians when it says circumcision is of no value.

If this really were such a concept core to Christianity, it would have merited a mention at least once. Instead, calling someone a “Pharisee” is usually a rhetorical device to come up with an excuse to disobey the New Testament.

[Soloist]

Well said. When pointing the finger at other Christians, calling them Pharisees, there are three fingers pointing back at oneself.

That’s why I always point with a knife hand!