The NEW Non-conformity Poll

[Hats Off]

Many good thought provoking points are made. It is striking me harder and harder when I witness that harsh-approached hardcore Nonconformity can and does create stumbling blocks in front of babes in Christ who are endeavoring to begin their walk in Sanctification, walking in the light God is giving them, but become offended because other Christians have taken it upon themselves to shove meat for mature Christians down the throats of babes in Christ.

I don't think you are being properly respectful or understanding of other approaches. I agree that uniformity is overdone but there would be more Christ-like ways of saying this, unless you are trying to emulate Jesus when he spoke to/about the Pharisees. But if you are trying to convince people about the excesses of non-conformity, you do your cause more harm than good.

[appleman2006]

I grew up in a setting and to a certain degree still am in an environment that would of said that we would mostly be comfortable with No. 3 but when it come to the way we actually live and practise might actually in many ways be closer to No. 2.

All that to say that the older I get the more I personally see myself being a No. 4 and maybe even a bit of number 5. What Ohio Jones said really resonates with me. I see the importance of coming out from the world and being separate or different than the world. I am simply somewhat disillusioned from how narrowly it is often defined. I find it strange that often more emphasis is placed on exactly how one is dressed than on how one shows the fruit of the spirit in one's life.
We set up huge fences that insist that we only fellowship with those that in every detail, at least outwardly, practise separation from the world just like we do.
And in the end we act a lot more like the Pharisees than we do like Jesus when it comes to interacting with the publicans.

I say this all carefully as I have many many brothers and sisters who I love very much who would not see this as I do. But frankly where some of them are fearful of the church heading a certain direction I have concerns it might actually be tipping the other way.

[DrWojo]

Many good thought provoking points are made. It is striking me harder and harder when I witness that harsh-approached hardcore Nonconformity can and does create stumbling blocks in front of babes in Christ who are endeavoring to begin their walk in Sanctification, walking in the light God is giving them, but become offended because other Christians have taken it upon themselves to shove meat for mature Christians down the throats of babes in Christ.

I don't think you are being properly respectful or understanding of other approaches. I agree that uniformity is overdone but there would be more Christ-like ways of saying this, unless you are trying to emulate Jesus when he spoke to/about the Pharisees. But if you are trying to convince people about the excesses of non-conformity, you do your cause more harm than good.

Sorry. I’ll try to explain what I’m driving at one more time. Our church’s families probably rub shoulders more with non-Plain people than many that are not in outlying areas. When asked why we dress the way we do, why we don’t have TV, why we don’t have tattoos, etc. You can either assume a Fighting stance and try to Guilt-trip the inquirer and turn them off entirely, or, in a more friendly manner, from endeavoring to walk in the Light as 1John1:7 admonishes, point them to that Light.
Here’s a fresh example:
Interacting with firefighters that have made profession of faith for several months time, some whose lives have been scarred by substance abuse and are living with someone but think because that happened before they learned of Christ, they’re married?
I can discourage them so they quit their regular Bible reading and prayer and try to correct them on MY time schedule, or I can continue to pray that God will further open the eyes of their understanding and that they will continue to choose Christ over their wills as their Light increases. If I want to see them lose out spiritually I would have to question if I’m not as lost as the prodigal son’s older brother.
If that’s called emulating Jesus I consider it an honor.
PS- nowhere do I remember saying in my former post it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

[Hats Off]

Many good thought provoking points are made. It is striking me harder and harder when I witness that harsh-approached hardcore Nonconformity can and does create stumbling blocks in front of babes in Christ who are endeavoring to begin their walk in Sanctification, walking in the light God is giving them, but become offended because other Christians have taken it upon themselves to shove meat for mature Christians down the throats of babes in Christ.

I don't think you are being properly respectful or understanding of other approaches. I agree that uniformity is overdone but there would be more Christ-like ways of saying this, unless you are trying to emulate Jesus when he spoke to/about the Pharisees. But if you are trying to convince people about the excesses of non-conformity, you do your cause more harm than good.

Sorry. I’ll try to explain what I’m driving at one more time. Our church’s families probably rub shoulders more with non-Plain people than many that are not in outlying areas. When asked why we dress the way we do, why we don’t have TV, why we don’t have tattoos, etc. You can either assume a Fighting stance and try to Guilt-trip the inquirer and turn them off entirely, or, in a more friendly manner, from endeavoring to walk in the Light as 1John1:7 admonishes, point them to that Light.
Here’s a fresh example:
Interacting with firefighters that have made profession of faith for several months time, some whose lives have been scarred by substance abuse and are living with someone but think because that happened before they learned of Christ, they’re married?
I can discourage them so they quit their regular Bible reading and prayer and try to correct them on MY time schedule, or I can continue to pray that God will further open the eyes of their understanding and that they will continue to choose Christ over their wills as their Light increases. If I want to see them lose out spiritually I would have to question if I’m not as lost as the prodigal son’s older brother.
If that’s called emulating Jesus I consider it an honor.
PS- nowhere do I remember saying in my former post it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea

I think you don't understand what I was trying to say in my previous post. Just as you respect those babe's in Christ, so you could use gentler and less hurtful words when attacking our non-conformity. I am not condemning you for your stand on non-conformity but it strikes me as ironic? that you use such harsh words to condemn someone else's harsh, hardcore approach. I did not intend to imply anything relating to the underlined passage. I was only commenting on the words high lighted in red above.

[silentreader]

I don't think you are being properly respectful or understanding of other approaches. I agree that uniformity is overdone but there would be more Christ-like ways of saying this, unless you are trying to emulate Jesus when he spoke to/about the Pharisees. But if you are trying to convince people about the excesses of non-conformity, you do your cause more harm than good.

Sorry. I’ll try to explain what I’m driving at one more time. Our church’s families probably rub shoulders more with non-Plain people than many that are not in outlying areas. When asked why we dress the way we do, why we don’t have TV, why we don’t have tattoos, etc. You can either assume a Fighting stance and try to Guilt-trip the inquirer and turn them off entirely, or, in a more friendly manner, from endeavoring to walk in the Light as 1John1:7 admonishes, point them to that Light.
Here’s a fresh example:
Interacting with firefighters that have made profession of faith for several months time, some whose lives have been scarred by substance abuse and are living with someone but think because that happened before they learned of Christ, they’re married?
I can discourage them so they quit their regular Bible reading and prayer and try to correct them on MY time schedule, or I can continue to pray that God will further open the eyes of their understanding and that they will continue to choose Christ over their wills as their Light increases. If I want to see them lose out spiritually I would have to question if I’m not as lost as the prodigal son’s older brother.
If that’s called emulating Jesus I consider it an honor.
PS- nowhere do I remember saying in my former post it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea

I think you don't understand what I was trying to say in my previous post. Just as you respect those babe's in Christ, so you could use gentler and less hurtful words when attacking our non-conformity. I am not condemning you for your stand on non-conformity but it strikes me as ironic? that you use such harsh words to condemn someone else's harsh, hardcore approach. I did not intend to imply anything relating to the underlined passage. I was only commenting on the words high lighted in red above.

Actually, I don't understand what either of you is saying.

[Wade]

I always thought that things like the plain suit coat or cape dresses had more to do with modesty and simplicity to glorify God than trying to be different than the world....? I guess so many things that look the same can be done for different reasons.

[Dan Z]

Hats off - I didn't read DrWoJo's words as an outside critique of plain people or non conformity, but an inside call to give new Christians room to grow in the fundamentals of their faith and belief before we in the non-conformed traditions expect them to practice complete non-conformity. A new Christian has a long journey ahead, needing to crawl a bit before they can walk in full maturity.

Correct me if I'm wrong DrWoJo, but I think WoJo belongs to a plain congregation himself - so he should not be read as a non-plain person critiquing plain people, but rather a plain person wondering about how his own congregation & group goes about relating to new Christians.

Did I get that right?

[DrWojo]

Hats off - I didn't read DrWoJo's words as an outside critique of plain people or non conformity, but an inside call to give new Christians room to grow in the fundamentals of their faith and belief before we in the non-conformed traditions expect them to practice complete non-conformity. A new Christian has a long journey ahead, needing to crawl a bit before they can walk in full maturity.

Correct me if I'm wrong DrWoJo, but I think WoJo belongs to a plain congregation himself - so he should not be read as a non-plain person critiquing plain people, but rather a plain person wondering about how his own congregation & group goes about relating to new Christians.

Did I get that right?

Yes! Spot-on. Thank you kindly.

I don’t want to undo what you just did or start anything new, but sometimes I also cringe with the way I observe a similar manner in which Christian’s approach questions from unbelievers regarding their Nonconformity applications. I’m far from being ashamed of the Nonconformity issues; what gets me going is how Plain people think their Nonconformity is a witness to the world then because of the spirit in which they go about answering the seeking-sinner’s questions, they turn the very same unsaved seekers completely off from desiring the things about which they were asking questions as seekers. Hope this makes sense.

[Hats Off]

Sorry. I’ll try to explain what I’m driving at one more time. Our church’s families probably rub shoulders more with non-Plain people than many that are not in outlying areas. When asked why we dress the way we do, why we don’t have TV, why we don’t have tattoos, etc. You can either assume a Fighting stance and try to Guilt-trip the inquirer and turn them off entirely, or, in a more friendly manner, from endeavoring to walk in the Light as 1John1:7 admonishes, point them to that Light.
Here’s a fresh example:
Interacting with firefighters that have made profession of faith for several months time, some whose lives have been scarred by substance abuse and are living with someone but think because that happened before they learned of Christ, they’re married?
I can discourage them so they quit their regular Bible reading and prayer and try to correct them on MY time schedule, or I can continue to pray that God will further open the eyes of their understanding and that they will continue to choose Christ over their wills as their Light increases. If I want to see them lose out spiritually I would have to question if I’m not as lost as the prodigal son’s older brother.
If that’s called emulating Jesus I consider it an honor.
PS- nowhere do I remember saying in my former post it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea

I think you don't understand what I was trying to say in my previous post. Just as you respect those babe's in Christ, so you could use gentler and less hurtful words when attacking our non-conformity. I am not condemning you for your stand on non-conformity but it strikes me as ironic? that you use such harsh words to condemn someone else's harsh, hardcore approach. I did not intend to imply anything relating to the underlined passage. I was only commenting on the words high lighted in red above.

Actually, I don't understand what either of you is saying.

I'll give up now before I bury myself any deeper

[DrWojo]

I’m not moving dirt, Hats Off, so don’t take this next post as any attempt to ‘bury’ you in your ‘hole’ you joked about! IMO - you were probably just scratching the surface and nowhere deep enough to even call it a hole!

On a more serious note, I just read the following devotional from John MacArthur’s Truth for Today (He said what I was trying to say, but nicer):

A Tender Response
A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all. - 2 Timothy 2:24
A Christian is to explain his faith “with meekness and fear” (1 Peter 3:15). This indicates a tender and gracious spirit in speaking. The kind of fear we ought to have is a healthy devotion to God, a healthy regard for the truth, and a healthy respect for the person we’re talking to. That’s why you can’t be quarrelsome when defending your faith.

A Christian who can’t carefully, thoughtfully, reasonably, and biblically give a clear explanation for his faith will be insecure when faced with hostility and might be inclined to doubt his salvation. The enemy’s blows will devastate those who haven’t put on “the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation” (1Thess. 5:8).

I need to work on this, especially towards my brothers in the faith. Thanks for those who picked up on the harmfulness and disrespect in my OP.