Wade wrote:I think your input is important here Steve.
The problem is that if things don't work out so well for us newcomers, then what are our alternatives?
I for one am not interested in going backwards spiritually (although I may have in ways...)
I want to stir up thoughts I guess from both sides in working through these challenges together if possible.
I do believe both ethnic and non really would like to see us all finding biblical ways to be part of His church.
Amen Wade. By the way, I don't doubt what either you or Steve have experienced by any means, and we have felt it as well. It is an ongoing challenge the Conservative Anabaptist community needs to wrestle with. But I'd like to give you and others hope to persevere as well - we, as non-Mennos by birth (NMBs), have fellowshipped closely with a number of plain groups and have been warmly welcomed and accepted.
For what it's worth, here are a few things that have worked for us over the years:
1) Look for churches that have a track record of welcoming those from non-plain backgrounds. Not all plain churches are the same. We have found this to be the especially the case among a number of non-conformed groups including the River Brethren, the German Baptists, some Beachy congregations, the Charity/Remnant congregations (which were started as a joint revival effort when plain and non-plain background folks joined forces), some Neo-Hutterite groups, and a number of the moderately-conservative groups like Biblical Mennonite Alliance. In my experience, the fundamentalist/separatist groups and the groups with a strong German dialect still in use are the hardest to assimilate into - for different reasons. If all else fails, the house church option is out there, where you can gather for fellowship and accountability with like-minded folks who share your lifestyle convictions - our family is currently in this situation. Remember, Anabaptism started as a house church movement.
2) Give yourself and the group plenty of time to get to know each other - by choosing to be a part of a plain group, you are stepping into not just a set of beliefs, but a faith-based high-expectation culture that is likely very different that what you have grown up with. This is probably what drew you in the first place, but understand one does not just flip a switch and know everything right away. Most of the folks you will fellowship with have grown up in this context - and they don't think twice about much of what they do. Things that you have to deliberately and sometimes self-consciously decide to do are second nature to them. If you have chosen the right group (see #1 above) they will be patient with you, understand your dilemma, and extend grace as you learn to assimilate. And try not to read too much into things or take things too personally - in any cross cultural situation, grace should rule the day.
3) Embrace your role as "Ausländer" - Come to terms with the fact that you are not, nor will you ever become a Yoder or Miller, Friesen or Stoltzfus - and that's OK. Jesus doesn't care about surnames. Believe it or not, many conservative Mennonite churches (see #1 above) long to find a way to welcome seekers into their midst - they just want to do so without loosing what is important to them. They recognize that seekers bring in new conviction, passion for things that have become common-place for them, fresh perspective, and ultimately, that Jesus calls us to make disciples of all nations. You may have a unique voice within the group as one who has deliberately chosen what they were born into - many plain folks will find it affirming that you have chosen to align with their convictions. And you may even be used to help the group see and understand perspectives that they may have been otherwise cut off from.
4) Understand plain folks care deeply about the stability of the church and the influences on their youth - It's not about you personally. They are concerned about the world and its influences, and experience has taught them that sometimes seekers may stir the pot and raise questions in ways that may be unhealthy for the church - especially for their young people. Respect that - you may share the same concern some day.
5) Don't try to Reform the church to your expectations - Sometimes seekers join a plain church that is close to their ideals...but not quite there. So they try to agitate and push to "fix" it. Plain folks place a high value on Gelasseheit (surrenderedness to Christ and his Church), and before you can speak to what the group is not, you need to show a strong willingness to give yourself to what it is. Seekers are often independent-minded folks who have spent a lifetime following their own instincts. This is perhaps the toughest transition to make - but if you want to truly be a part of a plain group, you will need to set aside your individualistic bent in deference to the body. Recognize that you are now linked to something larger than yourself - and that discernment is a collective process (which often means it is a rather slow process). I'm not talking about disregarding sin here - but understanding that you may need to set aside some of your preferences in deference to the groups understanding, and for the sake of fellowship.
6) Serve the Church in Mission - For a seeker coming into a plain community, especially after they have become established a bit in the group, spending time, or even a few years serving the church through mission is a great choice. This may be through short-term mission trips or disaster relief, or service in foreign missions. Service is a core Anabaptist principle and the mission context is a great leveler, where the most important things matter and much of the cultural baggage that keeps us apart falls away. In a mission setting (for us it was 5 years in Haiti) you can build deep relationships with a wide cross-section of plain folks, share a common bond of mission and purpose, and show to those back at home credibility in your commitment to the work of the church. You will also build life-long friendships that will help you feel more connected and make connections with others who know people who know you.
7) Remember - it should ultimately be about Jesus and his Kingdom - This is the most important thing...our motivation should be about obedience to Christ and service for his Kingdom. This is the holy calling for all who choose to follow him - it is in Christ that we find our motivation, our courage, our affirmation, our purpose. Anything else - lifestyle, pet doctrines, personal acceptance, culture, clothing styles, canning beans, whatever - may be important, but it's not the main thing.
Wow - that was too long. Sorry. Hope it was helpful at least.
Thanks Dan Z, that is quite an exhaustive explanation. (not exhausting). It is quite comprehensive and comprehend-able.
5) Don't try to Reform the church to your expectations - This can be quite important - I believe Elmo Stoll once said you should take ten years to learn the ropes before trying to change things. Seems a bit long to me; three to five years might not be out of line.
Hats Off wrote:Thanks Dan Z, that is quite an exhaustive explanation. (not exhausting). It is quite comprehensive and comprehend-able.
5) Don't try to Reform the church to your expectations - This can be quite important - I believe Elmo Stoll once said you should take ten years to learn the ropes before trying to change things. Seems a bit long to me; three to five years might not be out of line.
That couple that we both know that left your area and went to another one....at their new location it seems that he will refuse to become a part of that brotherhood because of his view on mode of baptism.
0 x
Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
Wade wrote:I think your input is important here Steve.
The problem is that if things don't work out so well for us newcomers, then what are our alternatives?
I for one am not interested in going backwards spiritually (although I may have in ways...)
I want to stir up thoughts I guess from both sides in working through these challenges together if possible.
I do believe both ethnic and non really would like to see us all finding biblical ways to be part of His church.
Amen Wade. By the way, I don't doubt what either you or Steve have experienced by any means, and we have felt it as well. It is an ongoing challenge the Conservative Anabaptist community needs to wrestle with. But I'd like to give you and others hope to persevere as well - we, as non-Mennos by birth (NMBs), have fellowshipped closely with a number of plain groups and have been warmly welcomed and accepted.
For what it's worth, here are a few things that have worked for us over the years:
1) Look for churches that have a track record of welcoming those from non-plain backgrounds. Not all plain churches are the same. We have found this to be the especially the case among a number of non-conformed groups including the River Brethren, the German Baptists, some Beachy congregations, the Charity/Remnant congregations (which were started as a joint revival effort when plain and non-plain background folks joined forces), some Neo-Hutterite groups, and a number of the moderately-conservative groups like Biblical Mennonite Alliance. In my experience, the fundamentalist/separatist groups and the groups with a strong German dialect still in use are the hardest to assimilate into - for different reasons. If all else fails, the house church option is out there, where you can gather for fellowship and accountability with like-minded folks who share your lifestyle convictions - our family is currently in this situation. Remember, Anabaptism started as a house church movement.
2) Give yourself and the group plenty of time to get to know each other - by choosing to be a part of a plain group, you are stepping into not just a set of beliefs, but a faith-based high-expectation culture that is likely very different that what you have grown up with. This is probably what drew you in the first place, but understand one does not just flip a switch and know everything right away. Most of the folks you will fellowship with have grown up in this context - and they don't think twice about much of what they do. Things that you have to deliberately and sometimes self-consciously decide to do are second nature to them. If you have chosen the right group (see #1 above) they will be patient with you, understand your dilemma, and extend grace as you learn to assimilate. And try not to read too much into things or take things too personally - in any cross cultural situation, grace should rule the day.
3) Embrace your role as "Ausländer" - Come to terms with the fact that you are not, nor will you ever become a Yoder or Miller, Friesen or Stoltzfus - and that's OK. Jesus doesn't care about surnames. Believe it or not, many conservative Mennonite churches (see #1 above) long to find a way to welcome seekers into their midst - they just want to do so without loosing what is important to them. They recognize that seekers bring in new conviction, passion for things that have become common-place for them, fresh perspective, and ultimately, that Jesus calls us to make disciples of all nations. You may have a unique voice within the group as one who has deliberately chosen what they were born into - many plain folks will find it affirming that you have chosen to align with their convictions. And you may even be used to help the group see and understand perspectives that they may have been otherwise cut off from.
4) Understand plain folks care deeply about the stability of the church and the influences on their youth - It's not about you personally. They are concerned about the world and its influences, and experience has taught them that sometimes seekers may stir the pot and raise questions in ways that may be unhealthy for the church - especially for their young people. Respect that - you may share the same concern some day.
5) Don't try to Reform the church to your expectations - Sometimes seekers join a plain church that is close to their ideals...but not quite there. So they try to agitate and push to "fix" it. Plain folks place a high value on Gelasseheit (surrenderedness to Christ and his Church), and before you can speak to what the group is not, you need to show a strong willingness to give yourself to what it is. Seekers are often independent-minded folks who have spent a lifetime following their own instincts. This is perhaps the toughest transition to make - but if you want to truly be a part of a plain group, you will need to set aside your individualistic bent in deference to the body. Recognize that you are now linked to something larger than yourself - and that discernment is a collective process (which often means it is a rather slow process). I'm not talking about disregarding sin here - but understanding that you may need to set aside some of your preferences in deference to the groups understanding, and for the sake of fellowship.
6) Serve the Church in Mission - For a seeker coming into a plain community, especially after they have become established a bit in the group, spending time, or even a few years serving the church through mission is a great choice. This may be through short-term mission trips or disaster relief, or service in foreign missions. Service is a core Anabaptist principle and the mission context is a great leveler, where the most important things matter and much of the cultural baggage that keeps us apart falls away. In a mission setting (for us it was 5 years in Haiti) you can build deep relationships with a wide cross-section of plain folks, share a common bond of mission and purpose, and show to those back at home credibility in your commitment to the work of the church. You will also build life-long friendships that will help you feel more connected and make connections with others who know people who know you.
7) Remember - it should ultimately be about Jesus and his Kingdom - This is the most important thing...our motivation should be about obedience to Christ and service for his Kingdom. This is the holy calling for all who choose to follow him - it is in Christ that we find our motivation, our courage, our affirmation, our purpose. Anything else - lifestyle, pet doctrines, personal acceptance, culture, clothing styles, canning beans, whatever - may be important, but it's not the main thing.
Wow - that was too long. Sorry. Hope it was helpful at least.
Thank you for this Dan.
I noticed you recommended moderate conservative churches. I have an example of what can make it so discouraging.
Living in the West Kootenays we have beautiful back country and mountains. I grew up in a family where we would go snowmobiling very often, including as late as July (I have been snowmobiling in the morning and boating and swimming in the afternoon in the same day). My dad lead and taught me and one of my cousin's how to snowmobile. I had a family and got out while that one cousin went on and is well known. When people hear my last name they ask, "Is Cam your cousin?!". His video company name even contains our last name and is plastered on the windshields of jacked up trucks with sleds in the back around the area... It is such a picture of what I used to live for...
So when my family travels to an intermediate church and visits another family after service where the father says to me that they left an ultra-conservative setting to be able to better welcome us newcomers, but later on my son says "They had a big red snowmobile in their garage!"
My heart just sinks...
Really it's no different than the fancy car or the motorcycle.
How do we newcomers cope with these things?
I noticed you recommended moderate conservative churches. I have an example of what can make it so discouraging.
Living in the West Kootenays we have beautiful back country and mountains. I grew up in a family where we would go snowmobiling very often, including as late as July (I have been snowmobiling in the morning and boating and swimming in the afternoon in the same day). My dad lead and taught me and one of my cousin's how to snowmobile. I had a family and got out while that one cousin went on and is well known. When people hear my last name they ask, "Is Cam your cousin?!". His video company name even contains our last name and is plastered on the windshields of jacked up trucks with sleds in the back around the area... It is such a picture of what I used to live for...
So when my family travels to an intermediate church and visits another family after service where the father says to me that they left an ultra-conservative setting to be able to better welcome us newcomers, but later on my son says "They had a big red snowmobile in their garage!"
My heart just sinks...
Really it's no different than the fancy car or the motorcycle.
How do we newcomers cope with these things?
I am not a moderate conservative; as an old order I feel for you. What can I say? I wonder what your son would see at my place that would be disappointing! You newcomers have to cope with them the same as we do - we would wish for and desire more consistency, and to have our eyes opened to what others see.
I don't intend to sound fault finding or looking for disappointments in anyway.
It's more like a recovered alcoholic.
Some get to where they never seem to have the urge ever again even when around it.
Some need to stay away from any temptation. Others are just repulsed by the thought of it.
Either way usually they really don't care to put themselves in a position around it if they can.
So when the church or church member(s) are partaking in what could be a temptation for a newcomer is there some helpful suggestions in dealing with this?
When our boys were getting close to driving age, we would look at the other cars on the road if we were travelling any distance. We would see all the nice, new cars on the road and would comment - "isn't that a nice car." Every so often I would point out a more modest car, and we would agree that this would be a nice car for us. We could see the nice cars or tractors or farms and comment on them but we knew that those things were not for us. I grew up not expecting much so that shiny piece of metal doesn't hold the attraction for me. But to answer your question, I don't know how to suggest that you deal with it. I just wish we could all agree to maintain modesty in all things.
Hats Off wrote:When our boys were getting close to driving age, we would look at the other cars on the road if we were travelling any distance. We would see all the nice, new cars on the road and would comment - "isn't that a nice car." Every so often I would point out a more modest car, and we would agree that this would be a nice car for us. We could see the nice cars or tractors or farms and comment on them but we knew that those things were not for us. I grew up not expecting much so that shiny piece of metal doesn't hold the attraction for me. But to answer your question, I don't know how to suggest that you deal with it. I just wish we could all agree to maintain modesty in all things.
Speaking of cars, it would be interesting if CA's had car makers, much like there are buggy makers. Simple and modest cars, sedan model for basic transport, a van model for families, and maybe a truck for farmers. Although this isn't very realistic due to federal safety laws I'm sure. I didn't mean to go off topic, just random thoughts..
Hats Off wrote:When our boys were getting close to driving age, we would look at the other cars on the road if we were travelling any distance. We would see all the nice, new cars on the road and would comment - "isn't that a nice car." Every so often I would point out a more modest car, and we would agree that this would be a nice car for us. We could see the nice cars or tractors or farms and comment on them but we knew that those things were not for us. I grew up not expecting much so that shiny piece of metal doesn't hold the attraction for me. But to answer your question, I don't know how to suggest that you deal with it. I just wish we could all agree to maintain modesty in all things.
Speaking of cars, it would be interesting if CA's had car makers, much like there are buggy makers. Simple and modest cars, sedan model for basic transport, a van model for families, and maybe a truck for farmers. Although this isn't very realistic due to federal safety laws I'm sure. I didn't mean to go off topic, just random thoughts..
Forgive me and I don’t mean to get off topic, but from the AC perspective I would like to mention the current receptiveness of “seekers”. Many Nazareans are still very raw from recent communism, many members who lived through it will view outsiders with a certain amount of distrust. There have been many instances of infiltration into churches because some of our Nazarean churches refuse to register with the governments and due to our beliefs of not taking oaths or bearing arms, members were constantly targeted and imprisoned as recently as the late 80’s. So there’s a lot of hurt that is still being held onto, however it is at the expense of potential seekers.
That being said, there are still a lot of new believers without any background that are coming and staying. Most say they are attracted to the joy and unity they witness. Some even are attracted to the “anti-establishment” stance many churches take.
Hope it was helpful at least.