Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Ken
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:44 am Back to the teacher who insisted on using the traditional pronouns.
Her argument was that she has a religious conviction (and claims freedom to act it out). This is a factual statement and must be treated as that, even if it is normally left to subjective opinion. The officials must at least try to refute the fact.
Insofar the counterargument about students calling teachers by nicknames is faulty. No student has really pretended to do this from a religious conviction.
But here we see how lightheartedly the protection of individual religions and consciences is brushed aside nowadays.They are no more protected because they are treated like mere private whims. That's the slippery slope down into Bolshevism.
(And of course, that shows that it is most important to have one's own Christian schools where Christian consciences are effectively protected.)
None of this is correct. First of all, if you read the article this teacher makes both freedom of speech and freedom of religion arguments so this is not simply a religious discussion. Second, she is wrong on both counts.

First with respect to religion. Your comment misunderstands both the role of of teachers in a public school and the nature of First Amendment religious protections. The First Amendment protects individuals from religious coercion by the state. Within public schools, the teacher IS the state. Or an agent of the state. The state coerces students to attend school through mandatory attendance laws and students generally have no choice in the teacher to whom they are assigned. Within the public school classroom, the teacher is every bit as much the state as a policeman, soldier, or judge. More so for students in fact, because they are with her for hundreds of hours. In this context, the First Amendment regulates the ability of the teacher as an agent of the state to inject religion and religious teachings inside the classroom where she has a captive audience.

This is completely uncontroversial and well established. Public school teachers are forbidden from leading Christian prayer within their classroom regardless of their personal religious convictions. Or any other prayer for that matter. How would you feel about a Muslim teacher who required her students to kneel and pray towards Mecca 5 times a day? Public school teachers cannot proselytize within the classroom on behalf of Christianity or any other faith. Neither can they do things like tell Indian children that they are refusing to use their "heathen" native names and are going to assign them "Christian" names which is what used to happen in state-run Indian boarding schools in the 19th and early 20th Century. That would be impermissible today. So no, public school teachers absolutely do not have a religious right to act out on their religious beliefs within the public school classroom, regardless of how sincere they may be. That has never been the case and it is not the case today.

With respect to freedom of speech or expression within the classroom her claim is similarly wrong. Public school teachers absolutely do not have the right to free expression within the classroom. States are free to mandate the conduct and expression of teachers and do so in a myriad of ways. State curriculum standards mandate what is taught within the classroom and what is not taught. Right now there are a rash of laws being passed across the country that regulate how the topics of racism and LGBT rights are to be addressed within the classroom. You may agree or disagree with these, but state legislatures have the right to impose them. As a teacher I cannot show R rated movies within my classroom even though in another context the First Amendment gives me the right to make, show, and view them. As a teacher I do have some freedom to conduct my classes as I see fit, but within tightly constrained limits. I cannot choose to teach my HS chemistry classes with university graduate school level content and then fail everyone who can't keep up. Nor can I teach at a 3rd grade level and deprive my students of the course material they signed up for and are required to learn. I have to follow the scope, sequence, and depth of material specified by the state curriculum standards so that an 11th grade chemistry class in my school roughly matches one offered by another school across the state.

This case is not just about pronouns, but also about names. It is exceedingly common for public school students to use names other than those that appear on their official enrollment records. And schools routinely accommodate this. Out of the 140 or so students that I have in class, perhaps 10% go by different first names than what are listed in their official record. Some because they have complicated and difficult to pronounce given names in other languages and prefer to use different names in school and with their peers. Some use nick names rather than their formal given names. Some use their middle names instead of their first names. I have one student who's father is in prison for abusing her and for violently assaulting her mother. She chooses not to use his last name even though it still appears on her enrollment record and I respect that. I have three daughters myself and all of them have rather formal Spanish given names because we are a bi-cultural family and they are dual-citizens of the US and Chile. And my wife and I decided to give them traditional family names that will allow them to navigate Chilean society as well as US society. They like their Spanish names, but two of them use English nick names within the classroom and the third uses her middle name, or actually an abbreviation of her middle name in school and with her peers. The schools are all happy to accommodate this as they routinely do for all students.

One of my students from Africa is named Ediana-Abasi. He goes by Eddie in school and I respect that. Another is named Yehowshuwa and goes by Josh. I also respect that. If I were to refuse to address them as they wished to be addressed in class in front of their peers and they complained to the school administration I would no doubt be asked to stop doing so and the school would be within its rights to discipline me if I refused. As an agent of the state, I do not have a First Amendment right to address then differently than they wish to be addressed either on free speech or religious grounds. If this teacher cannot keep her religious beliefs from interfering with her duties and responsibilities within the classroom then she should seek a position within a private religious school where she is free to inject her religion into the classroom because she is no longer an agent of the state.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 10:49 am
PetrChelcicky wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:44 am Back to the teacher who insisted on using the traditional pronouns.
Her argument was that she has a religious conviction (and claims freedom to act it out). This is a factual statement and must be treated as that, even if it is normally left to subjective opinion. The officials must at least try to refute the fact.
Insofar the counterargument about students calling teachers by nicknames is faulty. No student has really pretended to do this from a religious conviction.
But here we see how lightheartedly the protection of individual religions and consciences is brushed aside nowadays.They are no more protected because they are treated like mere private whims. That's the slippery slope down into Bolshevism.
(And of course, that shows that it is most important to have one's own Christian schools where Christian consciences are effectively protected.)
None of this is correct. First of all, if you read the article this teacher makes both freedom of speech and freedom of religion arguments so this is not simply a religious discussion. Second, she is wrong on both counts.

First with respect to religion. Your comment misunderstands both the role of of teachers in a public school and the nature of First Amendment religious protections. The First Amendment protects individuals from religious coercion by the state. Within public schools, the teacher IS the state. Or an agent of the state. The state coerces students to attend school through mandatory attendance laws and students generally have no choice in the teacher to whom they are assigned. Within the public school classroom, the teacher is every bit as much the state as a policeman, soldier, or judge. More so for students in fact, because they are with her for hundreds of hours. In this context, the First Amendment regulates the ability of the teacher as an agent of the state to inject religion and religious teachings inside the classroom where she has a captive audience.

This is completely uncontroversial and well established. Public school teachers are forbidden from leading Christian prayer within their classroom regardless of their personal religious convictions. Or any other prayer for that matter. How would you feel about a Muslim teacher who required her students to kneel and pray towards Mecca 5 times a day? Public school teachers cannot proselytize within the classroom on behalf of Christianity or any other faith. Neither can they do things like tell Indian children that they are refusing to use their "heathen" native names and are going to assign them "Christian" names which is what used to happen in state-run Indian boarding schools in the 19th and early 20th Century. That would be impermissible today. So no, public school teachers absolutely do not have a religious right to act out on their religious beliefs within the public school classroom, regardless of how sincere they may be. That has never been the case and it is not the case today.

With respect to freedom of speech or expression within the classroom her claim is similarly wrong. Public school teachers absolutely do not have the right to free expression within the classroom. States are free to mandate the conduct and expression of teachers and do so in a myriad of ways. State curriculum standards mandate what is taught within the classroom and what is not taught. Right now there are a rash of laws being passed across the country that regulate how the topics of racism and LGBT rights are to be addressed within the classroom. You may agree or disagree with these, but state legislatures have the right to impose them. As a teacher I cannot show R rated movies within my classroom even though in another context the First Amendment gives me the right to make, show, and view them. As a teacher I do have some freedom to conduct my classes as I see fit, but within tightly constrained limits. I cannot choose to teach my HS chemistry classes with university graduate school level content and then fail everyone who can't keep up. Nor can I teach at a 3rd grade level and deprive my students of the course material they signed up for and are required to learn. I have to follow the scope, sequence, and depth of material specified by the state curriculum standards so that an 11th grade chemistry class in my school roughly matches one offered by another school across the state.

This case is not just about pronouns, but also about names. It is exceedingly common for public school students to use names other than those that appear on their official enrollment records. And schools routinely accommodate this. Out of the 140 or so students that I have in class, perhaps 10% go by different first names than what are listed in their official record. Some because they have complicated and difficult to pronounce given names in other languages and prefer to use different names in school and with their peers. Some use nick names rather than their formal given names. Some use their middle names instead of their first names. I have one student who's father is in prison for abusing her and for violently assaulting her mother. She chooses not to use his last name even though it still appears on her enrollment record and I respect that. I have three daughters myself and all of them have rather formal Spanish given names because we are a bi-cultural family and they are dual-citizens of the US and Chile. And my wife and I decided to give them traditional family names that will allow them to navigate Chilean society as well as US society. They like their Spanish names, but two of them use English nick names within the classroom and the third uses her middle name, or actually an abbreviation of her middle name in school and with her peers. The schools are all happy to accommodate this as they routinely do for all students.

One of my students from Africa is named Ediana-Abasi. He goes by Eddie in school and I respect that. Another is named Yehowshuwa and goes by Josh. I also respect that. If I were to refuse to address them as they wished to be addressed in class in front of their peers and they complained to the school administration I would no doubt be asked to stop doing so and the school would be within its rights to discipline me if I refused. As an agent of the state, I do not have a First Amendment right to address then differently than they wish to be addressed either on free speech or religious grounds. If this teacher cannot keep her religious beliefs from interfering with her duties and responsibilities within the classroom then she should seek a position within a private religious school where she is free to inject her religion into the classroom because she is no longer an agent of the state.
It strikes me that you either have a severe misunderstanding of the constitutional questions involved or you're deliberately obfuscating the issues to win the argument.
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Ken
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 11:57 am It strikes me that you either have a severe misunderstanding of the constitutional questions involved or you're deliberately obfuscating the issues to win the argument.
Feel free to elaborate
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Robert
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Robert »

Robert wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:58 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ame ... nstitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A teacher, while an employee of the state is still an individual with rights.
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Ken
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:40 pm
Robert wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:58 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ame ... nstitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A teacher, while an employee of the state is still an individual with rights.
And those rights are balanced against the right of students (and their families) to be free from religious coercion and various religious influences while attending public schools. So public school teachers cannot:
  • lead Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu etc. prayers in the classroom
  • proselytize or evangelize in the classroom
  • require grade or judge students dress or behavior based on religious standards (wearing, not wearing head coverings, head scarves, etc.)
  • attack or denigrate other faiths in the classroom
And in this case, the teacher also cannot use religious grounds to identify/name/shame students with different names or pronouns other than those that they wish to be known by in the classroom in front of their peers.

Even if she believes that her faith directs her to do any of those things. Not when in the classroom where she has a captive audience of students who are required by law to be there and who come from all walks of life and all faiths. And where she is acting on behalf of the state in everything she does.

Teachers who are unable to avoid doing those sorts of things in public school classrooms should find other professions or teach in private religious schools where none of those restrictions apply.
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HondurasKeiser

Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by HondurasKeiser »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:14 pm And in this case, the teacher also cannot use religious grounds to identify/name/shame students with different names or pronouns other than those that they wish to be known by in the classroom in front of their peers.
Case-law citation, please.
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Robert
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

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Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:14 pm So public school teachers cannot:
lead Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu etc. prayers in the classroom
proselytize or evangelize in the classroom
require grade or judge students dress or behavior based on religious standards (wearing, not wearing head coverings, head scarves, etc.)
attack or denigrate other faiths in the classroom
She was doing none of these, so not sure why you had to list them in this discussion.
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:14 pm And in this case, the teacher also cannot use religious grounds to identify/name/shame students with different names or pronouns other than those that they wish to be known by in the classroom in front of their peers.
Well, that is the case being decided. You state it as fact, but it is not so. Each state will legislate this.

The question is can one be forced to use an arbitrary pronoun when addressing another. It may be a respectful thing to do, but can it be forced? Freedom of speech would suggest one can not be forced. What if a child decided their pronoun or nickname was a cuss word? I teen would do that.

If the teacher is forced to use it, then you will be forced to identify me on MN as "All time ruler of space and time."
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Ken
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 7:28 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:14 pm So public school teachers cannot:
lead Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu etc. prayers in the classroom
proselytize or evangelize in the classroom
require grade or judge students dress or behavior based on religious standards (wearing, not wearing head coverings, head scarves, etc.)
attack or denigrate other faiths in the classroom
She was doing none of these, so not sure why you had to list them in this discussion.
Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:14 pm And in this case, the teacher also cannot use religious grounds to identify/name/shame students with different names or pronouns other than those that they wish to be known by in the classroom in front of their peers.
Well, that is the case being decided. You state it as fact, but it is not so. Each state will legislate this.

The question is can one be forced to use an arbitrary pronoun when addressing another. It may be a respectful thing to do, but can it be forced? Freedom of speech would suggest one can not be forced. What if a child decided their pronoun or nickname was a cuss word? I teen would do that.

If the teacher is forced to use it, then you will be forced to identify me on MN as "All time ruler of space and time."
Which argument are you making? Freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

My point of all of those examples was to illustrate that public school teachers are most certainly not free to interject religion into the classroom. Either overtly or covertly. This is a well understood principal under the First Amendment as my examples illustrate.

Teachers are also most certainly not free to say whatever they want in the classroom. School districts and the state are most certainly free to regulate teacher's speech. Try calling students the N-word in a public school classroom and see how long you keep your job. That is just speech and just a name. Don't I have the freedom of expression to call my students what I want?

In this case the teacher is claiming a religious justification for treating students in a certain way. Or a religious justification for discriminating between her students. She is saying that because of her religious faith she does not approve of the gender identity of one of her students and for religious reasons she is going to signal her religious disapproval through language. That makes her actions improper. You cannot use religious grounds to discriminate between students. No matter how heartfelt your religions convictions are. And yes, words do matter. Especially to students and especially in front of their peers.

Just like Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Amish or Hindu parents and families have the right to send their kids to public schools and expect that their children will not face religious discrimination or judgement or disapproval in the public school classroom. And that they will be supported, not ostracized. Parents and families with LGBT students have that same right to send their kids to public schools and expect that they won't be discriminated against on religious grounds or any other grounds. And that they will also be supported and not ostracized. Which is exactly what this teacher was doing.

As for students who want to be clever and use a cuss word? First of all, that doesn't happen and second of all, that is easily dealt with. You send the child to the office to have a discussion with the principal or school administrator about his or her choice of language. What normally happens in these sorts of cases is that the student's psychologist or therapist and parents are in conversation with the school administration or counselors or psychologist and they work out a series of accommodations that might include preferred names/pronouns, bathrooms, locker rooms, PE, as well as topics like identifying and addressing bullying, etc. etc. And those decisions are communicated to the classroom teacher or teachers who are expected to provide a supportive and safe environment just like they are expected to do so for every one of their other students. Those students have the same right to a safe and supportive education as every other student. And their parents who are paying that teacher's salary have the right to expect it as well.

Schools do a lot of things that I don't necessarily approve of. I could talk for hours about all sorts of dumb decisions my school board, district administrators, or state department of education are doing with respect to education. But we live in a democracy and it isn't my place to substitute my own judgement for those of elected officials and the people above me who are tasked with school leadership. And I frankly wouldn't want their jobs. My place is to do the job I was hired to do. And if I find I can't do that, to find other work instead. I would say the same exact thing about any other public employee like a cop, soldier, doctor, judge, or building inspector.
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Robert
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Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by Robert »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 8:32 pm Which argument are you making? Freedom of speech or freedom of religion?

My point of all of those examples was to illustrate that public school teachers are most certainly not free to interject religion into the classroom.
I don't want teachers to interject their faith in teachings, but I do expect them to live out their faith in life and daily interactions with others. This is freedom of speech and religion both working together.
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temporal1

Re: Anabaptism and the 1st Amendment

Post by temporal1 »

To revisit the OP:
Robert wrote: ↑Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:58 pm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Ame ... nstitution
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
What have been the general engagement or benefit we Anabaptists have received from the US Constitution's first amendment?

What has the historic Anabaptist position to the "separation of church and state?"

Do we exercise the freedom of speech and press?

What benefits does peaceful assembly have for us?

How has petitioning the government been done by Anabaptists?

Is the 1st amendment a good thing or bad thing for Anabaptists overall?

It will be interesting to learn how the courts rule in this Kansas case (Pamela Ricard, Page 17).
The case is principally about her First Amendment rights to free speech and exercise of religion.
i don’t believe her religion is noted in the article. It should not be presumed.

The linked article ends with:
.. Arkansas last year became the first state to ban gender-affirming care, including puberty blockers and cross-sex hormone therapy, for minors. West Virginia also signed a bill into law in 2021, which was temporarily blocked, that prohibited transgender girls and women from participating in girls' and women's secondary school or higher education sports teams.

A judge in Texas on Friday also blocked the state from enforcing Gov. Greg Abbott's order to investigate gender-affirming care of minors as "child abuse," which parents and advocates criticized as another attack on transgender children.
There is ample indication valid questions remain, that there is no settled science or settled law. Lots+lots of questions.

Social engineering EXPERIMENTS need to be recognized as such, then questioned, tested, especially before being allowed to be crafted into anything resembling law. There is ‘way too much of this going on. It causes havoc in everyday lives and court rooms.
Last edited by temporal1 on Wed Mar 16, 2022 1:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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