Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

[Ken]

I think you need to take a step back and listen to what I actually say.

You seem very eager to project some kind of caricature onto me. I have said repeatedly I think followers of Christ need to live by a different standard, lay down our rights, and not carry arms. That doesn't mean I think nobody should carry arms, because that is a ridiculous stance to take. I just think Christians shouldn't do so.

Fine. But what I actually see happening with this thread and apparently in many or at least some plain Anabaptist churches is a whole bunch of men rationalizing why they need to own and carry firearms in their daily lives. Weapons who's main purpose is to kill (especially concealed handguns). And they come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why it is appropriate for them to carry weapons. While at the same time, many of those very same men.

condemn women and girls for all manner of perceived inappropriate dress from coverings (or lack of them) to hemlines, to stockings (or lack of them) to hairstyles, to sleeve length, to patterns, to fabric texture etc. etc. Not because any of those things violates any sort of biblical bright line, but because they represent some sort of "slippery slope" towards immorality.

condemn people for using alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and other drugs, not because of any explicit biblical prohibition, but for fear of misuse and the slippery slope that leads to drunkenness. At least in my bible, Jesus drank a lot of wine.

Demand the right to discriminate against LGBT individuals, because apparently treating everyone with respect is a slippery slope that leads to sodom and gomorrah.

I could go on and on.

I just think it is a lot of hypocrisy and a particular blind spot for a lot of conservative Anabaptist men who are quick to invent rationalizations for why they need to be armed to the teeth 24/7 with weapons designed to kill other people while at the same time being ultra strict and doctrinaire when it comes to the behavior of others.

And no, I'm not naive and nor do I think we can have a world without firearms. My own ideal world would look much more like most Scandinavian countries where firearms are highly regulated and firearms owners are subject to serious training requirements, licensing registration requirements, storage requirements, sale requirements, insurance and liability requirements, and so forth. Just like car owners in the US. And I think that would be entirely consistent with the 2nd Amendment which speaks to "well regulated militias". I tend to believe the answer to crime in this country and things like school shootings is less guns not more guns. But hey, maybe I'm just naive. Maybe it would be better if this country looked like Somolia or Yemen or Afghanistan where half the adult males go about in public with AK-47s slung over their shoulders.

[Josh]

I have said repeatedly I think followers of Christ need to live by a different standard, lay down our rights, and not carry arms. That doesn't mean I think nobody should carry arms, because that is a ridiculous stance to take. I just think Christians shouldn't do so.

Do you believe that everyone is called to become a follower of Christ? I do. I think part of repentance is turning away from our acceptance of killing or "neutralizing a threat".

I do too.

However, the government, military, and police must still use force. That is the role of government, and it is very clear in Romans 13 that the magistrate "does not bear the sword in vain".

The call is to follow Christ first, and then to put down the sword. Left-wing progressive Mennonites seem to think it happens in the other order. It makes no sense at all to call for no more self defence, no more police, and no more military, unless you can somehow magically make the world no longer have any evil people in it. The left-wing position is that the only people who should be allowed to use force are evil people who want to hurt good people.

[Josh]

I think you need to take a step back and listen to what I actually say.

You seem very eager to project some kind of caricature onto me. I have said repeatedly I think followers of Christ need to live by a different standard, lay down our rights, and not carry arms. That doesn't mean I think nobody should carry arms, because that is a ridiculous stance to take. I just think Christians shouldn't do so.

Fine. But what I actually see happening with this thread and apparently in many or at least some plain Anabaptist churches is a whole bunch of men rationalizing why they need to own and carry firearms in their daily lives. Weapons who's main purpose is to kill (especially concealed handguns). And they come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why it is appropriate for them to carry weapons. While at the same time, many of those very same men.

Which is why I left those church settings, and left with a rather strong rebuke. I'm not a very popular person in those church circles anymore because of that.

condemn women and girls for all manner of perceived inappropriate dress from coverings (or lack of them) to hemlines, to stockings (or lack of them) to hairstyles, to sleeve length, to patterns, to fabric texture etc. etc. Not because any of those things violates any sort of biblical bright line, but because they represent some sort of "slippery slope" towards immorality.

I have never been part of a church setting that focused on details to that level, having only been part of moderately conservative, or less, types of churches.

condemn people for using alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, and other drugs, not because of any explicit biblical prohibition, but for fear of misuse and the slippery slope that leads to drunkenness. At least in my bible, Jesus drank a lot of wine.

I have taken a strong stance against meth and heroin in my community and will continue to do so. Of course that doesn't mean I treat addicts like dirt - I do whatever I can to help them. But I've made it very clear you cannot be a follower of Christ and also be a follow of meth.

Demand the right to discriminate against LGBT individuals, because apparently treating everyone with respect is a slippery slope that leads to sodom and gomorrah.

I could go on and on.

Given the present day world we live in that looks very much like Sodom & Gomorrah, I think my concerns are justified. We live in a very sick twisted world (and not just because of widespread acceptance of sodomy, there are other things like widespread porn use that are very serious moral problems that are leading a lot of people straight to hell).

I just think it is a lot of hypocrisy and a particular blind spot for a lot of conservative Anabaptist men who are quick to invent rationalizations for why they need to be armed to the teeth 24/7 with weapons designed to kill other people while at the same time being ultra strict and doctrinaire when it comes to the behavior of others.

Could you point out MY blind spot? I don't carry guns, and when I became a Christian, I stopped carrying guns. Since then, I have called for other Christians to also stop carrying guns. Doing so has made me unpopular in a number of circles.

And no, I'm not naive and nor do I think we can have a world without firearms. My own ideal world would look much more like most Scandinavian countries where firearms are highly regulated and firearms owners are subject to serious training requirements, licensing registration requirements, storage requirements, sale requirements, insurance and liability requirements, and so forth. Just like car owners in the US. And I think that would be entirely consistent with the 2nd Amendment which speaks to "well regulated militias". I tend to believe the answer to crime in this country and things like school shootings is less guns not more guns. But hey, maybe I'm just naive. Maybe it would be better if this country looked like Somolia or Yemen or Afghanistan where half the adult males go about in public with AK-47s slung over their shoulders.

We don't live in a Scandinavian country full of Scandinavians. We are better described as a multi-ethnic society that has Somalians, Yemenis, Afghanis, Scandinavian-descent people, and many other types of people in it. So our country is going to look more like Somalia than Scandinavia does (although they're starting to look more like Somalia in places like Malmö, which is on its third day of rioting and burning to the ground today).

[Ken]

Could you point out MY blind spot? I don't carry guns, and when I became a Christian, I stopped carrying guns. Since then, I have called for other Christians to also stop carrying guns. Doing so has made me unpopular in a number of circles.

Not you so much as the general thrust of this thread where there is a lot of rationalization as to why Anabaptists need concealed carry for "wild animals"

I'm probably thinking more of my rural Mennonite cousins who like to play hooky and scoot out to gun shows and gun shops every time we have some sort of family reunion or event. And then spend half the rest of the time standing around their tailgates, admiring their latest hauls. And then the will come inside and gripe about how teenage girls dress these days.

Yeah sure. Guns are just a "tool" and part of rural life. But I don't ever see them worshiping and admiring their latest shovel, hammer, or crowbar acquisitions.

[Josh]

Could you point out MY blind spot? I don't carry guns, and when I became a Christian, I stopped carrying guns. Since then, I have called for other Christians to also stop carrying guns. Doing so has made me unpopular in a number of circles.

Not you so much as the general thrust of this thread where there is a lot of rationalization as to why Anabaptists need concealed carry for "wild animals"

Ken, with respect, you aren't listening to me.

I spoke with someone in another kind of Mennonite church about a concealed carry permit, and why I think a Christian shouldn't have one. She immediately started justifying why it was OK because of the need to defend against wild animals and thus be able to carry a gun in a car.

That was the explanation I gave earlier.

I expressed my disagreement with this. And in return, you reward me with telling me how I'm a hypocrite and inconsistent. You really are the epitome of "shooting your allies".

I'm probably thinking more of my rural Mennonite cousins who like to play hooky and scoot out to gun shows and gun shops every time we have some sort of family reunion or event. And then spend half the rest of the time standing around their tailgates, admiring their latest hauls. And then the will come inside and gripe about how teenage girls dress these days.

Yeah sure. Guns are just a "tool" and part of rural life. But I don't ever see them worshiping and admiring their latest shovel, hammer, or crowbar acquisitions.

In my church group, we don't go to gun shows, and people who do are looked down on and would eventually find themselves subject to church work. (Griping about how teenage girls are dressed, or lack thereof, isn't really a common thing either, at least amongst men. That's more a topic women discuss amongst themselves.)

Perhaps you should look deeper into actually living a genuine conservative Mennonite lifestyle that actually practices it, and focus less on denominations you hate. Perhaps you should really take a long look in the mirror and consider how harsh your words have been with me, when all I have is done is consistently tell other Christians they should stop carrying guns and buying guns and so on.

Most people in this thread were very concerned some conservative Mennonites are finding excuses to carry guns, like Ernie. There is no "general thrust of this thread where there is a lot of rationalization as to why Anabaptists need concealed carry". You seem to want very badly to believe there is. I would daresay that your church group (whatever it is) is probably a much more comfortable place for someone who wants to carry a gun and intend to use it for self defence than my church is.

[Ernie]

I'm probably thinking more of my rural Mennonite cousins who like to play hooky and scoot out to gun shows and gun shops every time we have some sort of family reunion or event. And then spend half the rest of the time standing around their tailgates, admiring their latest hauls.

Yeah sure. Guns are just a "tool" and part of rural life. But I don't ever see them worshiping and admiring their latest shovel, hammer, or crowbar acquisitions.

Josh, this is what I am referring to when I talk about status symbol, identity, and pride. Even if handguns are concealed, I'm guessing that for some carriers, it is very important that certain other people know what handgun they have.

When I am around some of my inlaw relatives, the conversation sometimes gravitates toward chrome stacks, chrome wheels, justifications for spending over 1K to the chrome wheels polished, etc.

Both the former topic and the latter topic definitely fit into the realm of status symbol, identity, and pride.

[Ken]

Ken, with respect, you aren't listening to me.

I spoke with someone in another kind of Mennonite church about a concealed carry permit, and why I think a Christian shouldn't have one. She immediately started justifying why it was OK because of the need to defend against wild animals and thus be able to carry a gun in a car.

That was the explanation I gave earlier.

I expressed my disagreement with this. And in return, you reward me with telling me how I'm a hypocrite and inconsistent. You really are the epitome of "shooting your allies".
.

I guess we just aren't listening to each other. What I actually wrote was

I just think it is a lot of hypocrisy and a particular blind spot for a lot of conservative Anabaptist men who are quick to invent rationalizations for why they need to be armed to the teeth 24/7 with weapons designed to kill other people while at the same time being ultra strict and doctrinaire when it comes to the behavior of others.

Clearly I wasn't talking about you if that is not your position. But it is an accurate description of a lot of Mennonites that I know and am related to. I give them light-hearted grief about their gun fetishes when we are together. They give me grief for driving a Prius instead of a Chevy Silverado. And for believing in climate change. And we go back and forth until it is time to eat. Because after all, family is family.

[Josh]

Josh, this is what I am referring to when I talk about status symbol, identity, and pride. Even if handguns are concealed, I'm guessing that for some carriers, it is very important that certain other people know what handgun they have.

I have only experienced this with Mennonites who attend CMC type of churches.

When I am around some of my inlaw relatives, the conversation sometimes gravitates toward chrome stacks, chrome wheels, justifications for spending over 1K to the chrome wheels polished, etc.

Both the former topic and the latter topic definitely fit into the realm of status symbol, identity, and pride.

I have not actually experienced this but I haven't really spent much time around the types of spiritually lacking Mennonites who tend to act that way.

[Josh]

I guess we just aren't listening to each other. What I actually wrote was

I just think it is a lot of hypocrisy and a particular blind spot for a lot of conservative Anabaptist men who are quick to invent rationalizations for why they need to be armed to the teeth 24/7 with weapons designed to kill other people while at the same time being ultra strict and doctrinaire when it comes to the behavior of others.

Clearly I wasn't talking about you if that is not your position. But it is an accurate description of a lot of Mennonites that I know and am related to. I give them light-hearted grief about their gun fetishes when we are together. They give me grief for driving a Prius instead of a Chevy Silverado. And for believing in climate change. And we go back and forth until it is time to eat. Because after all, family is family.

I think the decision to carry a gun or not is much more important than buying a Toyota or a Chevy. Not something I can really "go back and forth" about. Eventually, I can't have close spiritual fellowship with people who are packing heat.

Then again, "family isn't always family" because I'm not an ethnic Anabaptist; most my relatives are not Anabaptist at all. I can very easily handle spiritual differences with them. But I also wouldn't be ranting and complaining on MennoNet about how spiritually lax they are, just because they are descended from Quakers or United Church of Christ or Catholics.

This kind of grievance (and then somehow magically just all getting along) is a unique ethnic Mennonite thing.

[Ken]

I guess we just aren't listening to each other. What I actually wrote was

I just think it is a lot of hypocrisy and a particular blind spot for a lot of conservative Anabaptist men who are quick to invent rationalizations for why they need to be armed to the teeth 24/7 with weapons designed to kill other people while at the same time being ultra strict and doctrinaire when it comes to the behavior of others.

Clearly I wasn't talking about you if that is not your position. But it is an accurate description of a lot of Mennonites that I know and am related to. I give them light-hearted grief about their gun fetishes when we are together. They give me grief for driving a Prius instead of a Chevy Silverado. And for believing in climate change. And we go back and forth until it is time to eat. Because after all, family is family.

I think the decision to carry a gun or not is much more important than buying a Toyota or a Chevy. Not something I can really "go back and forth" about. Eventually, I can't have close spiritual fellowship with people who are packing heat.

Then again, "family isn't always family" because I'm not an ethnic Anabaptist; most my relatives are not Anabaptist at all. I can very easily handle spiritual differences with them. But I also wouldn't be ranting and complaining on MennoNet about how spiritually lax they are, just because they are descended from Quakers or United Church of Christ or Catholics.

This kind of grievance (and then somehow magically just all getting along) is a unique ethnic Mennonite thing.

Oh, come on. It's not a uniquely ethnically Mennonite thing. It's a most families everywhere in the world thing. I once had a girlfriend in college from an old traditional Boston Italian family. When I visited over Thanksgiving it was crazy all the bickering and disagreements at volumes that curled this Mennonite kid's ears. But everyone settled down by the time the food was served. When I visit my Catholic Chilean inlaws it's the same thing but less loud. But every one of them will drop everything for you in an instant if you need help. Because family is family. Ethnic Mennonites don't have any monopoly on family relations.

As for the gun thing. All my Menno cousins who are the most gun toting are all CMC. They also drive big fancy expensive American pickups. So you probably have something there. And when all the teasing is done they will also do anything for you at the drop of a hat. Because family is family. And, despite or political and religious disagreements, they are all good people.