Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 2:19 pm
The "limit" may not be so much of a limit as is portrayed. Ever hear of HeLa cells? I worked with them in the late 70s. As of this time, they appear to be immortal and not subject to such limits. They have adapted to life in vitro and replicate furiously, without apparent limits. Now, if it can be determined how they do this, you have an answer.
BTW when my studies were over, it was a requirement that you destroy all remaining cells and sterilize your glassware. IF you follow the logic of some here, I am guilty of murder.
Hela cells were taken from cancerous tissue from an adult woman from a biopsy.
it simply is not "live baby tissue," full stop. You cannot kill someone multiple times. It is deliberately deceptive language.
Fetal stem cells most certainly are live tissue that is taken from an aborted baby. I mean, the cells are obviously live, and the baby was aborted.
What else would you call it?
The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is worth reading. She was a black woman who was misused by the medical community...with regard to consent and racial practices in medecine, from her body came Hela. Short of Henrietta Lacks. I read it about 15 years ago.
Good book. Read it when it first came out. Some of the story is suspect. Consent standards were far different than, and even when I began practicing, we frequently did not do extensive written consent. We did not do written consents for IV X-ray contrast until the mid 80s. She actually got Radium treatment for her cervical cancer, which was state of the art at the time.
No one knew that her cells would grow in vitro, and what would come of them.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 4:22 pm
I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.
No surprise there. As I said, it would require money, at least a phase 3 trial, and either an institution or company with deep pockets. Are people asking the FDA for permission to just directly import it without an NDA?
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 2:24 pm
That is NOT the cell line used in the Rubella component of the vaccine. The one used for the vaccine is WI-38, which is a completely different cell line. That is not what is being discussed here. You are the one strawmannirg, if anyone is.
There are lots of different stem cell lines used. I picked one whose provenance is well-documented.
Since you brought up the one for the rubella vaccine, though, let's discuss that.
The little baby who is nowadays crassly and coldly referred to as "WI-38" was murdered by her mother because her mother felt she already had enough children. She never got a name.
Do you think that is okay?
In the same sense WI-38 cells are alive, HeLa cells are alive. You seem to be really selective in which life you value.
Yes, I value an unborn baby much more highly than I do a biopsy from an adult. I should hope you can understand the difference between the two.
JM, to be honest, your equivocating about abortion really... concerns me. I'll just leave it at that. It is genuine concern. I hope you will take the time to speak to me privately about it sometime.
I am not "equivocating, just continuing to hold the same position i have always held. And since when do you have to be anti-vax to be pro-life? Do you think you set the standards? I hold the same position as the majority of the Pro-life movement.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 4:22 pm
I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.
No surprise there. As I said, it would require money, at least a phase 3 trial, and either an institution or company with deep pockets. Are people asking the FDA for permission to just directly import it without an NDA?
What I know is there is a team researching it and a few individuals asking, Japan also has some problems right now. 15-20 years ago it was done but the FDA is saying no now.
Soloist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 4:22 pm
I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.
No surprise there. As I said, it would require money, at least a phase 3 trial, and either an institution or company with deep pockets. Are people asking the FDA for permission to just directly import it without an NDA?
What I know is there is a team researching it and a few individuals asking, Japan also has some problems right now. 15-20 years ago it was done but the FDA is saying no now.
If you leave a drug "dormant" for long enough the FDA cancels its registration. Sometimes the FDA looses the paperwork. Happened to our discipline with F18 Sodium Fluoride (F18NaF). They actually admitted that they lost the registration paperwork. Took 2 years to get it back. That is with the full weight of a professional society behind it, and lots of money.
I wish your friends well. My suspicion is that if there are production problems with the current vaccine, and it goes off market, the substitute will be an MRNA vaccine. No fetal cells there, but loads of conspiracy theories.
I wish your friends well. My suspicion is that if there are production problems with the current vaccine, and it goes off market, the substitute will be an MRNA vaccine. No fetal cells there, but loads of conspiracy theories.
Well is it possible to make an ethical MRNA vaccine? sure but my guess is the RNA will come from fetal cells and it will be tested on HEK-293.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2026 10:25 pmI wish your friends well. My suspicion is that if there are production problems with the current vaccine, and it goes off market, the substitute will be an MRNA vaccine. No fetal cells there, but loads of conspiracy theories.
So far, all of the mRNA vaccines that have been produced have used fetal stem cells. It's possible to develop an mRNA vaccine without them - just, so far, all of them have used fetal stem cells.
I would appreciate it if you would not call those of us who wish to avoid the great evil of abortion "conspiracy theorists", and rather try to work alongside us to help live out what I believe to be an important Christian conviction.
Anabaptists have a long history of not fearing death and not choosing to do evil things in order to prolong our own lives. The sin of abortion is no different.
I wish your friends well. My suspicion is that if there are production problems with the current vaccine, and it goes off market, the substitute will be an MRNA vaccine. No fetal cells there, but loads of conspiracy theories.
Well is it possible to make an ethical MRNA vaccine? sure but my guess is the RNA will come from fetal cells and it will be tested on HEK-293.
The "testing" will be difficult to avoid. As far as I have heard and seen, no fetal cell protein is used in production.
The testing is to determine if the substance being tested causes mutations in human cells. Rejecting any drug because of post-production testing will be particularly difficult, if not impossible. Virtually any drug, and most artificial dyes and coloring agents, sooner or later will be tested.
Do I make a perfectly licit agent illicit by testing it after it has been made in an illicit manner? The Jesuits have spilled a bit of ink on that one.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2026 9:23 am
The testing is to determine if the substance being tested causes mutations in human cells. Rejecting any drug because of post-production testing will be particularly difficult, if not impossible. Virtually any drug, and most artificial dyes and coloring agents, sooner or later will be tested.
I set my standard at "this drug wasn't developed using aborted baby tissue". So Tylenol is completely fine. If some modern-day pharmaceutical companies decide to use stem cell tissues for testing, that isn't my concern, although if I can find out a certain manufacturer did this, I would avoid them. (I treat food the same way - I absolutely avoid things that were developed using fetal stem cells. One of them can be found in many church kitchens.)
Do I make a perfectly licit agent illicit by testing it after it has been made in an illicit manner? The Jesuits have spilled a bit of ink on that one.
I am not particularly concerned with what Jesuits think.
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2026 9:23 am
The "testing" will be difficult to avoid. As far as I have heard and seen, no fetal cell protein is used in production.
Moderna had the claim that there are no fetal cells in the production chain for Covid. I spent some time digging and that’s where they sourced the DNA to make the RNA and I suspect it will be the same here.
The testing is to determine if the substance being tested causes mutations in human cells. Rejecting any drug because of post-production testing will be particularly difficult, if not impossible. Virtually any drug, and most artificial dyes and coloring agents, sooner or later will be tested.
These are perfectly reasonable to use a dozen different other cell lines that are not from abortion. Continue to say it’s not a big deal and it never will be changed.
Do I make a perfectly licit agent illicit by testing it after it has been made in an illicit manner? The Jesuits have spilled a bit of ink on that one.
As I’ve said, before, I draw a distinction between it was necessary to get approval and someone randomly tested it after the fact.