Mennonite Church of God in Christ

[mike]

If it were only a symbol of church membership, maybe so. But in the case of the COGCM, it's not; it's a symbol of their one true church doctrine. To consider all who are not part of their church as being unsaved... you tell me whether that is evil or not.

See my comment to gcdconner below.

Reading the strong statements of John Holdeman and then the evidence of the more conciliatory position of modern Holdeman Mennonites reminds me of the Mormons, who would just as rather their founder wouldn't have said some of the things he did. From what I'm seeing, in spite of its official doctrine, it appears that the modern COGCM thinks and behaves as though the Church is possibly a bit bigger than their church. I think that is a positive development, although I think it would be even more constructive to disavow their mistaken belief altogether.

My experience around CoGic, M is that they resent being called "Holdemans" and insist they are not followers of John Holdeman. If they do want to religiously follow a man's writings, they seem to esteem anything Menno Simons said quite highly.

Of course, John Holdeman might still be very influential, in the same sense that John Funk, Daniel Kauffman, or George Brunk have been extremely influential - Daniel Kauffman so much that many churches use Doctrines of the Bible for an instruction class.

Sure, I get that. So, are you saying that they would disavow John Holdeman's teachings that were false, including his one true church doctrine?

[Wade]

[Josh]

Sure, I get that. So, are you saying that they would disavow John Holdeman's teachings that were false, including his one true church doctrine?

I don't know. Why don't you go to a CoGiC, M church and ask them? I don't go to church and then find people to debate teachers from the 19th century with, or debate theology and find things to disagree with.

[mike]

Sure, I get that. So, are you saying that they would disavow John Holdeman's teachings that were false, including his one true church doctrine?

I don't know. Why don't you go to a CoGiC, M church and ask them? I don't go to church and then find people to debate teachers from the 19th century with, or debate theology and find things to disagree with.

I don't have any interest in visiting, and there's no CGCM church in this area. I respect that your choice is to consider this an unimportant issue, but I hope you understand that it is a deal-breaker for many.

[KingdomBuilder]

Where in scripture is the idea of an invisible church you "join" as part of baptism?

I don't understand what you're saying here

[Josh]

Where in scripture is the idea of an invisible church you "join" as part of baptism?

I don't understand what you're saying here

Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it. (I don't know if any Old Order people accept converts without baptism, but I doubt it.)

A more recent concept is that there is an "invisible church" of true, regenerate believers residing both inside and outside of the "visible church" gathered in congregations. The approach to baptism that Reformed & Baptist theology takes and those derived from that is that baptism baptises you into this invisible, global church, and thus never needs to be repeated again as long as you sincerely believed in Christianity when you were baptised.

I think that can be an acceptable set of traditions but I don't think by any means it's the only valid set of traditions. A great weakness I see in this viewpoint is that since joining a church has nothing to do with becoming a Christian or baptism, a focus ends up on making sure the baptism itself is right.

How much water? How cold? How deep in the water?

What direction do you go into the water? Forward? Backward? Both?

How many times in the water? Once? Thrice? Four times?

In what name or names are you baptised?

I think those are unimportant details. I think the significant part of baptism is that it's symbolic of starting the Christian life, which in my opinion needs to be something that happens with other Christian believers, with grace, of course, for those who don't have any Christian believers nearby them to commune with.

[KingdomBuilder]

Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it.

Are there examples in scripture of people changing congregations and getting re-baptized as a consequence?
I'm not arguing or even totally disagreeing yet, so please don't take this as a confrontation.

I see what you're saying about Reformed/ Baptist theology. I guess it boils down to what exactly baptism is more about: horizontal or vertical? I wonder.

[Josh]

Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it.

Are there examples in scripture of people changing congregations and getting re-baptized as a consequence?
I'm not arguing or even totally disagreeing yet, so please don't take this as a confrontation.

I see what you're saying about Reformed/ Baptist theology. I guess it boils down to what exactly baptism is more about: horizontal or vertical? I wonder.

There aren't examples of this prior to the Anabaptist movement in 1525. That's basically what an Anabaptist was back then, and at the time, "rebaptism" was indeed a crime.

The idea of multiple congregations existing with frequent transfers between them wasn't talked about in the Bible, although this did become a problem by the era of early Christianity.

[Wade]

Well, the picture in scripture is that people were baptised when they joined the local church they were part of, which is still how conservative Anabaptists generally do this, and how all Old Order type of people do it.

Are there examples in scripture of people changing congregations and getting re-baptized as a consequence?
I'm not arguing or even totally disagreeing yet, so please don't take this as a confrontation.

There is one example of being re-baptized in scripture, however it doesn't necessarily fit exactly with your question and is qualified on different parameters, but still interesting and worth a look nonetheless. See Acts 19:1-5

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

[Josh]

There is one example of being re-baptized in scripture, however it doesn't necessarily fit exactly with your question and is qualified on different parameters, but still interesting and worth a look nonetheless. See Acts 19:1-5

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

I have sat and heard a sermon on this very topic explaining that if anyone was baptised in another "name" (like "the name of the Son"), and repented, that was just a baptism of repentance, but now they need to be baptised in Jesus' name.