Farewell, MCUSA

[GaryK]

I would use the same exact standards as for straight sex and straight relationships. If they are abusive, obsessive/addictive, casual, unfaithful, strictly physical, or between or with minors I would call them sinful. If they are between mature, committed, faithful and loving people I’m unwilling to say they are sinful. Whether or not they have an actual marriage license from the state. It is like anything else in life. Like the upstream discussion about greed. Life is not black and white, we live in shades of gray and context is important. More important is how we treat each other.

I realize that is a minority view here and so be it. I think God wants me to focus on my own weaknesses rather than obsessing about the sins or possible sins of others.

But who or what determines that the types of things you describe are sinful? Is the Bible your basis for concluding that such behavior is sinful?

I think the Bible is a guide. Not a prescriptive list of regulations. It is up to us to figure out what is meant. Set aside gays for the moment because it is so emotional and take some other topic that the Bible identifies as a sin. I’ll pick one at random that has come up before. Usury.

There is a strict prohibition against Usury in the Bible that Muslims and some conservative Christians follow to the letter. But I would actually step back and ask what is the real purpose behind this prohibition and why did it exist. From my point of view, the Biblical prohibition on usury was really a prohibition on exploiting or taking advantage of the poor. There is not anything inherently evil about interest per se. It is just like any other payment one might make like rent, taxes, etc. What is evil is taking advantage of the misfortune of others by charging them interest, especially high interest when they desperately need to borrow money to feed their families, plant their crops, buy their freedom, or whatever else Biblical people did with the money that they borrowed.

In a modern context I would ask myself if a program that provides low interest loans to lower income people so they can afford to buy a house or start a business is something inherently evil. And I would say no it is not. Likewise, modest income people who are saving for the future and put their money into interest-bearing savings accounts in which the interest largely just balances out inflation? Not evil. Those are all things that assist the poor rather than exploit them. But a business that preys on the misfortune of others such as payday lenders and pawn shops that charge high rates of interest and suck people into cycles of debt? That seems evil and a sin. Again, the distinction is not whether interest is being charged, but whether or not people are being taken advantage of.

So in the modern world, is usury (interest) a black and white sin? I think not. It might be or it might be depending on context. I would not label bankers as sinners just because they work for a business that is based on charging and paying interest. The context is important and the Bible doesn’t give us a cut and dried or black and white set of rules. We actually have to use our brains and consider the context in everything we do.

I see gay and straight relationships the same way. As well as most other sins like greed, envy, pride, strife, etc. Context and intent matters. As well as how we affect and treat others.

You seem to be evading my question, which is, do you use the Bible to determine that gay sex that is "abusive, obsessive/addictive, casual, unfaithful, strictly physical, or between or with minors" is sinful?

[Ken]

But who or what determines that the types of things you describe are sinful? Is the Bible your basis for concluding that such behavior is sinful?

I think the Bible is a guide. Not a prescriptive list of regulations. It is up to us to figure out what is meant. Set aside gays for the moment because it is so emotional and take some other topic that the Bible identifies as a sin. I’ll pick one at random that has come up before. Usury.

There is a strict prohibition against Usury in the Bible that Muslims and some conservative Christians follow to the letter. But I would actually step back and ask what is the real purpose behind this prohibition and why did it exist. From my point of view, the Biblical prohibition on usury was really a prohibition on exploiting or taking advantage of the poor. There is not anything inherently evil about interest per se. It is just like any other payment one might make like rent, taxes, etc. What is evil is taking advantage of the misfortune of others by charging them interest, especially high interest when they desperately need to borrow money to feed their families, plant their crops, buy their freedom, or whatever else Biblical people did with the money that they borrowed.

In a modern context I would ask myself if a program that provides low interest loans to lower income people so they can afford to buy a house or start a business is something inherently evil. And I would say no it is not. Likewise, modest income people who are saving for the future and put their money into interest-bearing savings accounts in which the interest largely just balances out inflation? Not evil. Those are all things that assist the poor rather than exploit them. But a business that preys on the misfortune of others such as payday lenders and pawn shops that charge high rates of interest and suck people into cycles of debt? That seems evil and a sin. Again, the distinction is not whether interest is being charged, but whether or not people are being taken advantage of.

So in the modern world, is usury (interest) a black and white sin? I think not. It might be or it might be depending on context. I would not label bankers as sinners just because they work for a business that is based on charging and paying interest. The context is important and the Bible doesn’t give us a cut and dried or black and white set of rules. We actually have to use our brains and consider the context in everything we do.

I see gay and straight relationships the same way. As well as most other sins like greed, envy, pride, strife, etc. Context and intent matters. As well as how we affect and treat others.

You seem to be evading my question, which is, do you use the Bible to determine that gay sex that is "abusive, obsessive/addictive, casual, unfaithful, strictly physical, or between or with minors" is sinful?

No, not necessarily. Like I said, I don’t think the Bible is that prescriptive. I think it is up to us to figure out how to have healthy loving relationships with others. And that’s why God gave us brains and the ability to think and interpret situations in complex and sophisticated ways. We aren’t dogs or oxen who plod through life following a simple set of commands without thinking things through for ourselves. I don’t think being gay is some special category that is different from anything else in life.

[GaryK]

I think the Bible is a guide. Not a prescriptive list of regulations. It is up to us to figure out what is meant. Set aside gays for the moment because it is so emotional and take some other topic that the Bible identifies as a sin. I’ll pick one at random that has come up before. Usury.

There is a strict prohibition against Usury in the Bible that Muslims and some conservative Christians follow to the letter. But I would actually step back and ask what is the real purpose behind this prohibition and why did it exist. From my point of view, the Biblical prohibition on usury was really a prohibition on exploiting or taking advantage of the poor. There is not anything inherently evil about interest per se. It is just like any other payment one might make like rent, taxes, etc. What is evil is taking advantage of the misfortune of others by charging them interest, especially high interest when they desperately need to borrow money to feed their families, plant their crops, buy their freedom, or whatever else Biblical people did with the money that they borrowed.

In a modern context I would ask myself if a program that provides low interest loans to lower income people so they can afford to buy a house or start a business is something inherently evil. And I would say no it is not. Likewise, modest income people who are saving for the future and put their money into interest-bearing savings accounts in which the interest largely just balances out inflation? Not evil. Those are all things that assist the poor rather than exploit them. But a business that preys on the misfortune of others such as payday lenders and pawn shops that charge high rates of interest and suck people into cycles of debt? That seems evil and a sin. Again, the distinction is not whether interest is being charged, but whether or not people are being taken advantage of.

So in the modern world, is usury (interest) a black and white sin? I think not. It might be or it might be depending on context. I would not label bankers as sinners just because they work for a business that is based on charging and paying interest. The context is important and the Bible doesn’t give us a cut and dried or black and white set of rules. We actually have to use our brains and consider the context in everything we do.

I see gay and straight relationships the same way. As well as most other sins like greed, envy, pride, strife, etc. Context and intent matters. As well as how we affect and treat others.

You seem to be evading my question, which is, do you use the Bible to determine that gay sex that is "abusive, obsessive/addictive, casual, unfaithful, strictly physical, or between or with minors" is sinful?

No, not necessarily. Like I said, I don’t think the Bible is that prescriptive. I think it is up to us to figure out how to have healthy loving relationships with others. And that’s why God gave us brains and the ability to think and interpret situations in complex and sophisticated ways. We aren’t dogs or oxen who plod through life following a simple set of commands without thinking things through for ourselves. I don’t think being gay is some special category that is different from anything else in life.

Apparently I'm not making myself clear. I'm interested in hearing how you came to the conclusion that some gay sexual activity is SIN? What do you base your pronouncement of SIN on.

[Ken]

You seem to be evading my question, which is, do you use the Bible to determine that gay sex that is "abusive, obsessive/addictive, casual, unfaithful, strictly physical, or between or with minors" is sinful?

No, not necessarily. Like I said, I don’t think the Bible is that prescriptive. I think it is up to us to figure out how to have healthy loving relationships with others. And that’s why God gave us brains and the ability to think and interpret situations in complex and sophisticated ways. We aren’t dogs or oxen who plod through life following a simple set of commands without thinking things through for ourselves. I don’t think being gay is some special category that is different from anything else in life.

Apparently I'm not making myself clear. I'm interested in hearing how you came to the conclusion that some gay sexual activity is SIN? What do you base your pronouncement of SIN on.

The Bible talks about fornication and wanton behavior and being unfaithful to each other and being captive to our lusts. I don't have time to dig into all the texts but we all know they are there. I'm just saying I don't hold gay people to any higher standard than straight people. I have a 16 year old daughter and she had better not be sleeping around and I'm pretty sure she isn't but parent's don't always know. But she has a good head on her shoulders and I trust her. On the other hand, my 24 year old daughter has been living on her own for 6 years. She's active in her church and has a variety of boyfriends over the years. Do I know everything she has ever done with any of them? No, and I really don't care to either. I assume she's been a good kid but parents don't always know. We did our best to raise her with good values and that is all you can do. Is being intimate with her boyfriend the worst thing she can do? No, not hardly. I wouldn't necessarily approve, but in the grand scheme of things I would be less bothered by that than if she got involved in thievery or working for some business that exploited and harmed others, or any hundreds of other things that she might get sucked into. I hold gay people to that same standard. I don't necessarily approve but I'm not scandalized by it either. And there are far worse things they can get sucked into than a little intimacy with their boyfriend/girlfriend.

I have taught HS for a long time and in some pretty evangelical parts of the country and I can tell you that kids both gay and straight are pretty busy being intimate with each other everywhere. In Baptist world there are a lot of girls who are "saving themselves for marriage" by being intimate in every way possible but ordinary "missionary" sex. Because they have come to believe or have talked themselves into the notion at as long as they don't do vaginal sex they are still virgins. Are they sinning? Probably. Is it the worst sin ever? No. Are they still active in their churches and church youth groups? Yes, that is actually where some of it happens. So gay kids doing the same exact thing that straight kids have literally been doing since the dawn of time? Shrug. If that is the worst sin they ever do we are probably going to be OK. It isn't something I think it is worth tearing churches apart over. And if the Catholic Inquisition couldn't stamp it out using Medieval torture and burning people at the stake I don't think old people being disapproving is going to do it either.

[Soloist]

Judges 21: 25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

This is only challenged by people who are leaving the Kingdom of God or have already left it.

Romans 1: 23-29 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

[GaryK]

No, not necessarily. Like I said, I don’t think the Bible is that prescriptive. I think it is up to us to figure out how to have healthy loving relationships with others. And that’s why God gave us brains and the ability to think and interpret situations in complex and sophisticated ways. We aren’t dogs or oxen who plod through life following a simple set of commands without thinking things through for ourselves. I don’t think being gay is some special category that is different from anything else in life.

Apparently I'm not making myself clear. I'm interested in hearing how you came to the conclusion that some gay sexual activity is SIN? What do you base your pronouncement of SIN on.

The Bible talks about fornication and wanton behavior and being unfaithful to each other and being captive to our lusts. I don't have time to dig into all the texts but we all know they are there. I'm just saying I don't hold gay people to any higher standard than straight people. I have a 16 year old daughter and she had better not be sleeping around and I'm pretty sure she isn't but parent's don't always know. But she has a good head on her shoulders and I trust her. On the other hand, my 24 year old daughter has been living on her own for 6 years. She's active in her church and has a variety of boyfriends over the years. Do I know everything she has ever done with any of them? No, and I really don't care to either. I assume she's been a good kid but parents don't always know. We did our best to raise her with good values and that is all you can do. Is being intimate with her boyfriend the worst thing she can do? No, not hardly. I wouldn't necessarily approve, but in the grand scheme of things I would be less bothered by that than if she got involved in thievery or working for some business that exploited and harmed others, or any hundreds of other things that she might get sucked into. I hold gay people to that same standard. I don't necessarily approve but I'm not scandalized by it either. And there are far worse things they can get sucked into than a little intimacy with their boyfriend/girlfriend.

I have taught HS for a long time and in some pretty evangelical parts of the country and I can tell you that kids both gay and straight are pretty busy being intimate with each other everywhere. In Baptist world there are a lot of girls who are "saving themselves for marriage" by being intimate in every way possible but ordinary "missionary" sex. Because they have come to believe or have talked themselves into the notion at as long as they don't do vaginal sex they are still virgins. Are they sinning? Probably. Is it the worst sin ever? No. Are they still active in their churches and church youth groups? Yes, that is actually where some of it happens. So gay kids doing the same exact thing that straight kids have literally been doing since the dawn of time? Shrug. If that is the worst sin they ever do we are probably going to be OK. It isn't something I think it is worth tearing churches apart over. And if the Catholic Inquisition couldn't stamp it out using Medieval torture and burning people at the stake I don't think old people being disapproving is going to do it either.

So just because it may not be the worst sin ever, should churches affirm those sins? I believe anytime churches begin affirming or approving of things the Bible clearly calls sin, those churches are in danger of having their candlesticks removed, as the Revelation warns.

[Neto]

Paul describes a progression of sinfulness in the letter to the Romans, marking out the start with "depicting God as in the shape or form of a man or an animal". It gets progressively worse, and at each stage, "God turns them over to their darkness". That is where the "not the worst sins" lead a person.

[Ken]

Apparently I'm not making myself clear. I'm interested in hearing how you came to the conclusion that some gay sexual activity is SIN? What do you base your pronouncement of SIN on.

The Bible talks about fornication and wanton behavior and being unfaithful to each other and being captive to our lusts. I don't have time to dig into all the texts but we all know they are there. I'm just saying I don't hold gay people to any higher standard than straight people. I have a 16 year old daughter and she had better not be sleeping around and I'm pretty sure she isn't but parent's don't always know. But she has a good head on her shoulders and I trust her. On the other hand, my 24 year old daughter has been living on her own for 6 years. She's active in her church and has a variety of boyfriends over the years. Do I know everything she has ever done with any of them? No, and I really don't care to either. I assume she's been a good kid but parents don't always know. We did our best to raise her with good values and that is all you can do. Is being intimate with her boyfriend the worst thing she can do? No, not hardly. I wouldn't necessarily approve, but in the grand scheme of things I would be less bothered by that than if she got involved in thievery or working for some business that exploited and harmed others, or any hundreds of other things that she might get sucked into. I hold gay people to that same standard. I don't necessarily approve but I'm not scandalized by it either. And there are far worse things they can get sucked into than a little intimacy with their boyfriend/girlfriend.

I have taught HS for a long time and in some pretty evangelical parts of the country and I can tell you that kids both gay and straight are pretty busy being intimate with each other everywhere. In Baptist world there are a lot of girls who are "saving themselves for marriage" by being intimate in every way possible but ordinary "missionary" sex. Because they have come to believe or have talked themselves into the notion at as long as they don't do vaginal sex they are still virgins. Are they sinning? Probably. Is it the worst sin ever? No. Are they still active in their churches and church youth groups? Yes, that is actually where some of it happens. So gay kids doing the same exact thing that straight kids have literally been doing since the dawn of time? Shrug. If that is the worst sin they ever do we are probably going to be OK. It isn't something I think it is worth tearing churches apart over. And if the Catholic Inquisition couldn't stamp it out using Medieval torture and burning people at the stake I don't think old people being disapproving is going to do it either.

So just because it may not be the worst sin ever, should churches affirm those sins? I believe anytime churches begin affirming or approving of things the Bible clearly calls sin, those churches are in danger of having their candlesticks removed, as the Revelation warns.

No, honestly not. I'm not big into all this pride stuff and affirmation stuff either for straight folks or gay folks or LGBT folks or whoever. I don't think it really belongs in church. I just don't think that gay folks who fool around outside of marriage are any bigger sinners than straight folks who do exactly the same thing. And if gay folks want to get married they should be held to the same standards and expectations as straight folks.

Gay folks are going to be in your families and in your churches. That is inevitable. It is going to happen. It is unrealistic and utterly hypocritical to expect them to live like monks or cloistered nuns when we don't have that same expectation for everyone else. Maybe it was 50 or 100 years ago when there was enormous societal stigma. But not today. So either you drive them out of your families and churches or accept the fact that they are part of who we are as families and churches. I ask myself what would Jesus do and come to the latter conclusion. Obviously that is not a conclusion shared by the majority here.

[Pelerin]

I had two elderly unmarried aunts who have since passed and who lived alone or shared their homes with other single women. Were they gay? I have no idea but probably.

I’ll just say on behalf of all single people: Thanks. We really appreciate it when people just assume things about us.

[temporal1]

Let me just say on behalf of all single people: Thanks. We really appreciate it when people just assume things about us.

no kidding. thanks for bothering to respond. with so much wrong, where to begin?