Poll: Concealed Weapons among Plain Anabaptists?

[Ken]

Remember those times when people came into churches and shot people? That is why people bring guns to church for protection.
We shouldn’t carry guns. But if someone thinks they should, a church isn’t a reasonable place to choose not to carry it.

If you have armed congregants packing concealed weapons in a Mennonite church, I frankly don't know what makes it Mennonite anymore. The costumes?

It's almost as bad as the 'teachers should pack concealed weapons in public schools' stuff that the NRA promotes.

I don’t agree that it is good sense for people/Mennonites to carry concealed weapons.
I’m just saying that if we take someone who doesn’t believe in nonresistance, who is already carrying, that person wouldn’t believe it makes sense to carry everywhere except church.

Gotcha.

I suspect that most hard-core concealed carry types aren't going to be attracted to Mennonite churches in the first place. I suspect what is really happening in some of these churches is there are members who grew up in the church from historic Mennonite families who have sort of drifted away from some of the harder teachings of the church in terms of non-resistance. They still attend out of habit, family obligations, culture, and because they have friends and family there. But they have drifted away theologically from the center of the church and gravitated more towards mainstream ideas.

[Josh]

I suspect that most hard-core concealed carry types aren't going to be attracted to Mennonite churches in the first place. I suspect what is really happening in some of these churches is there are members who grew up in the church from historic Mennonite families who have sort of drifted away from some of the harder teachings of the church in terms of non-resistance. They still attend out of habit, family obligations, culture, and because they have friends and family there. But they have drifted away theologically from the center of the church and gravitated more towards mainstream ideas.

Correct. As this drift happens, other drift happens too, like buying more expensive, fancier vehicles, wearing more worldly clothes, smaller and more fashionable looking coverings, and so on.

What to be done about it is an ancient debate - one that has not yet been fully resolved in Anabaptism. The original Dutch Anabaptists held a hard line, which resulted in the Flemish vs. Frisian divisions. I do not claim to have the answers for this, I can just attest that absorbing the worldly culture of your neighbours is not the right answer.

[Judas Maccabeus]

[But now that I realize it's almost 100%, my question is why is there such a strong aversion to inner city ministry on the part of conservative Mennonites. Even in Baltimore, they go to the one place where it's not inner city.

No place to grow tomatoes??

I get that with rural Mennonites. I was just flabbergasted 5 mins ago when I found out the Baltimore church is in the one ritzy place in Baltimore. If you are going to go to Baltimore to reach the lost, why not reach the 90% that is inner city.

Ok, I gave you a chance to admit that you had never been there. Here goes:

Hampden is NOT the one ritzy place in Baltimore, for that you would head for Gilford, Roland Park, Mt. Vernon or lastly Harbor East. Charles Village is in the running as well. Hampden is historically a white working class neighborhood that has gentrified to a large degree. Fells Point, Federal Hill, Canton and Patterson Park would be somewhat similar. Young couples have moved into these areas, to find affordable housing, and the infrastructure to support them has followed. These are not "ritzy" places, but they have a strong neighborhood feel. The neighborhoods still have a high percentage of people that are not well off, and there is a significant percentage below the poverty line. The community food bank, which is well patronized, helps to meet that need, our church participates in this.

To create a self sustaining school/day care you need people in need of such services, and can afford the tuition. We can't take government aid, so you can't locate in an area where that would be the only people in the community in need of a school and daycare, so that limits your choices. The founders consulted with people on the ground in Baltimore, they chose Hampden, I would have given them the list above if I were consulted. You need a balance of a number of different factors to make it work, and in retrospect, they made the right choice.

Oh, yes 90% of Baltimore is not inner city, whatever that means. Even saying something like that means you do not understand Baltimore, have never actually been her, or both. Baltimore is a city of neighborhoods, each very different than the next, and each somewhat isolated, as if it was it's own village. There are some really bad neighborhoods near Hampden, but to function here you would need a constant stream of resources from the outside, even in the best of times, which these most certainly aee not. Hampden is solidly a "mixed" working class and yuppie neighborhood. It is certainly not anything higher on the scale than that. Go a few blocks, in the wrong direction, and all bets are off.

Most murders in Baltimore are connected to the drug trade anyway. They seldom involve "civilians."

The York church is in a high poverty part of York, just east of the downtown. I have seen at least 2 houses in the immediate vicinity burned out from arson. York also has a significant homelessness problem. I guess you have not been there either.

I am an essentially lifelong resident of Baltimore, and a member of Hampden Mennonite Church. York is the nearest church in our conference, so I get up there frequently. I cannot conceive of anyone in either of these groups carrying a weapon for self defense. I will state, I have no problem with rural folk carrying weapons for use against wildlife. In their case, a gun is a tool they use in farming or ranching. There is a world of difference between that and packing a pistol to church or other places.

J.M.

[ragpicker]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

[Ken]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

What is non-physical violence and can you give an example of what you are talking about?

[MichaelPA]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

I would have to agree with this. Uncircumcised hearts are what is to blame. Underneath all the plain clothing are hearts that aren't much different from a "worldly" person's heart.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

You have a problem with me correcting someone who basically repeats untruthful things about my city and my church? I gave him a chance to correct himself.

Those kind of rumors are harmful to those of us who must work here. Untruth uncorrected eventually gets accepted as the truth.

I don’t consider this “non physical violence.” I consider it setting the record straight.

J.M.

[ragpicker]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

You have a problem with me correcting someone who basically repeats untruthful things about my city and my church? I gave him a chance to correct himself.

Those kind of rumors are harmful to those of us who must work here. Untruth uncorrected eventually gets accepted as the truth.

I don’t consider this “non physical violence.” I consider it setting the record straight.

J.M.

I wasn’t referring to that. I’m sorry it seemed that way.

[steve-in-kville]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

I owe you breakfast next time you're in the area. This has become a personal hangup of mine when it comes to conservative folks and their sour attitude towards law enforcement and the military. Show a little respect... they're doing something you're not willing to do!

(okay, I went off on a rabbit trail there.... back to making soup... )

[DrWojo]

I’m always intrigued how horrified Mennonites are over a concealed weapon, while being willing to commit non-physical violence at the drop of a hat.

I owe you breakfast next time you're in the area. This has become a personal hangup of mine when it comes to conservative folks and their sour attitude towards law enforcement and the military. Show a little respect... they're doing something you're not willing to do!

(okay, I went off on a rabbit trail there.... back to making soup... )

I’ve been helping with the Census again and over the weekend I had to try to get an interview from a rancher whose wife was very modestly dressed and had uncut hair. While the man maintained clean speech and never cussed, he displayed open hostility that “it’s none of the government’s business to send strangers nosing around and asking whether I own my property free and clear.” His wife had more of the spirit of Abigail (Naboth’s wife) and tried her best to help me without dishonoring her husband. The punchline comes when I had to return needing a neighborhood proxy where she came to the door by herself and helped. Before leaving I told her how much I appreciated her modest attire and humble spirit. She then told me her husband was the preacher of a local conservative Church of God. (There are about half a dozen of them in the area.)

Later I met another person I went to Church with at the feed store who also was being sure to let me know similar attitudes towards the Government and the Census. I gave them a similar synopsis without being specific and asked, “Why do we bother trying to live a Sanctified life in our dress and to leave a witness only to display a very different attitude when a Census taker shows up at our door?”

And I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t say that I haven’t always been nice when I receive the long form for the Census. But then I don’t share the same hang ups over whether or not someone chooses to carry.