Theories of Atonement

[JohnH]

Interestingly, “pietism” is a term in Holdeman (and non-OOE Amish) circles that is used to basically mean apostasy that comes dressed up like being more spiritual. I’ve long wondered which authors influenced this.

[Ernie]

Interestingly, “pietism” is a term in Holdeman (and non-OOE Amish) circles that is used to basically mean apostasy that comes dressed up like being more spiritual. I’ve long wondered which authors influenced this.

Pietism in Brethren history refers to piety - both personal piety as well as corporate piety. It doesn't have anything to do with being more liberal or more apostate.

The Mennonites I know who are really hard on pietism are concerned about individualism and spiritual activity that is not done under the leadership of the church. But most of them hardly have any idea what it actually means. They just know that it is a bad word.
As James Lowry once said, "Whenever Mennonites don't like something about another group, they call it pietism."

Many years ago when I was about 20 years old, Edsel Burdge had a topic at the Conservative Mennonite Teacher's Institute in which he read quotes from early Anabaptists and from Pietists. After each one, the audience was supposed to guess whether the statement came from a Pietist or an Anabaptist. with every quote, its author was the opposite of what we would have expected. (Edsel's goal was to show that there was a lot of overlap between the two movements.)
The older men most opposed to Pietism didn't appreciate that they were "had", and steps were taken to ensure that Edsel was never asked to speak at one of their gatherings again.

[R7ehr]

The older men most opposed to Pietism didn't appreciate that they were "had", and steps were taken to ensure that Edsel was never asked to speak at one of their gatherings again.

Doesn’t sound very pietistic. Makes sense.

[eccentric_rambler]

... The Mennonites I know who are really hard on pietism are concerned about individualism and spiritual activity that is not done under the leadership of the church. But most of them hardly have any idea what it actually means. They just know that it is a bad word.
As James Lowry once said, "Whenever Mennonites don't like something about another group, they call it pietism."

I don't know who he is, but he's not the only one to notice. Pietism makes quite the bogeyman. I don't hear pietism as the favored whipping boy nearly as much now compared to eight or ten years ago.

Many years ago when I was about 20 years old, Edsel Burdge had a topic at the Conservative Mennonite Teacher's Institute in which he read quotes from early Anabaptists and from Pietists. After each one, the audience was supposed to guess whether the statement came from a Pietist or an Anabaptist. with every quote, its author was the opposite of what we would have expected. (Edsel's goal was to show that there was a lot of overlap between the two movements.)
The older men most opposed to Pietism didn't appreciate that they were "had", and steps were taken to ensure that Edsel was never asked to speak at one of their gatherings again.

I understand and feel the smiley you chose, but also . People...

[mike]

... The Mennonites I know who are really hard on pietism are concerned about individualism and spiritual activity that is not done under the leadership of the church. But most of them hardly have any idea what it actually means. They just know that it is a bad word.
As James Lowry once said, "Whenever Mennonites don't like something about another group, they call it pietism."

I don't know who he is, but he's not the only one to notice. Pietism makes quite the bogeyman. I don't hear pietism as the favored whipping boy nearly as much now compared to eight or ten years ago.

Many years ago when I was about 20 years old, Edsel Burdge had a topic at the Conservative Mennonite Teacher's Institute in which he read quotes from early Anabaptists and from Pietists. After each one, the audience was supposed to guess whether the statement came from a Pietist or an Anabaptist. with every quote, its author was the opposite of what we would have expected. (Edsel's goal was to show that there was a lot of overlap between the two movements.)
The older men most opposed to Pietism didn't appreciate that they were "had", and steps were taken to ensure that Edsel was never asked to speak at one of their gatherings again.

I understand and feel the smiley you chose, but also . People...

Sometimes speakers have interesting ways of saying indirectly that they would prefer taking other kinds of speaking engagements in the future.

[eccentric_rambler]

Sometimes speakers have interesting ways of saying indirectly that they would prefer taking other kinds of speaking engagements in the future.

Maybe that was the intent. My wife often stops me from goring sacred cows. It's so tempting, though, especially when the "cow" is not what they think it is!

[cmbl]

Fascinating. Do I understand correctly that piety is the common root he sees in both theological liberalism and theological fundamentalism?

I would need to re-read the conclusion to his book, but I think he is referring to "Pietism" in scare quotes to symbolize Mennonites seeking the genuine spirituality found in other Christian movements rather than seeking the genuine spirituality that is their own heritage.

Sorry barnhart, I misread you as asking about Pietism or "Pietism" rather than about piety. Piety is being used in a neutral sense to describe, well, piety - earnest Christianity. Mennonite Piety Through the Centuries is a survey of devotional literature circulated by Mennonites - some of it their own, and some of it Pietist in origin - and the ideas contained in said literature. Mennonite devotional literature includes Golden Apples in Silver Bowls, the Martyrs' Mirror, and Christian Burkholder's Address to Young People. They also circulated Pietist devotional literature (prayer books, works of Gerhard Tersteegen, etc.).

[cmbl]

Interestingly, “pietism” is a term in Holdeman (and non-OOE Amish) circles that is used to basically mean apostasy that comes dressed up like being more spiritual. I’ve long wondered which authors influenced this.

Yes, that would seem to be a simplified take on Friedmann's work. Eastern Mennonite Publications carries Mennonite Piety Through the Centuries.

[Ernie]

Well, Bercot is glad to set the record straight.



In response to Taylor trying to set the record straight earlier.



Anyway, it seems clear that Bercot and Taylor are still best of friends and joke and laugh about their differences.

[barnhart]

I can accept penal and substitutionary atonement to the extent that it is in the scripture, you will find it if you look for it but it doesn't seem to me to be the primary view or analogy used in the scripture. I have at least two critiques of the way it is commonly used or presented.

1. PSA reduces the sacrificial system of the old testament to substitutionary atonement and since Jesus' death is the culmination there is no room for other types of sacrifice. Some were thank offerings presented in gratefulness, some were fellowship offerings, some were presented in gratitude at the safe birth of a child. These response/relational type offerings don't seem to have a place in PSA. The work of Jesus is reduced to the point that his life, teaching, example, resurrection and ascension are rendered unimportant details. In this atonement theory Jesus may just as well have been killed by Herod and fulfilled his blood sacrifice as an infant.
2. PSA presents the wrath of God as the problem to be resolved. I question this assumption. God's emotions are not entirely parallel to ours because they are based in complete knowledge and justice. His anger is a good thing just as his judgement is a good thing, both are expressions of his determination to create and preserve what is good. God is not the problem that needs to be solved in the atonement.

If the PSA can be presented in a way that that doesn't create these distortions and holds close to scripture, I can accept it as one of several analogies used in the scripture to talk about atonement and it wouldn't surprise me to find the early church did as well.