On being liberal and our diversity (poll)

[Sudsy]

He would probably offend everyone by hanging out with the unchurched and ministering to them.

Not everyone. There are still Christians who do the same.

Yes, 'everyone' is too inclusive. Seems though the emphasis is often on 'keeping clear of sinners' as we might be drawn into their sinning than it is to 'seek and to save those who are lost'. This kind of isolation is how the Pharisees lived and Jesus rebuked them. If Anabaptism isn't more than growth through having children, then is this not a form of racism ?

[Bill Rushby]

….. to Eastern/Nationwide/Appalachian to Pilgrim to Keystone to Lancaster to MCUSA.

What's Appalachian? Never heard of that one before.

That was me before I moved back to northeastern New York!!!

[Bill Rushby]

….. to Eastern/Nationwide/Appalachian to Pilgrim to Keystone to Lancaster to MCUSA.

What's Appalachian? Never heard of that one before.

That was me before I moved back to northeastern New York!!! Now that conference no longer exists! It can be very lonely being a conference of one! But I scored high on nonconformity!

[Ken]

He would probably offend everyone by hanging out with the unchurched and ministering to them.

Not everyone. There are still Christians who do the same.

Yes, 'everyone' is too inclusive. Seems though the emphasis is often on 'keeping clear of sinners' as we might be drawn into their sinning than it is to 'seek and to save those who are lost'. This kind of isolation is how the Pharisees lived and Jesus rebuked them. If Anabaptism isn't more than growth through having children, then is this not a form of racism ?

I didn't mean "everyone" as in every person. I mean everyone as in every different denomination who would be competing to be the most faithfully Christian in Christ's eyes. As in while the Catholics, Lutherans, Mormons, Mennonites, Baptists, etc. are all off competing and arguing for first place in Christ's eyes he would actually be off ministering to the unchurched and poor just like in New Testiment times

At least that's the image I would have.

[barnhart]

All my dairy farmer relatives work on Sunday's for example. Yet no Mennonite church has ever questioned their choice of profession. A strict reading of the 10 commandments might lead one to conclude that dairy farming is inconsistent with the 3rd Commandment. Yet that never seems to be an issue ever, and I don't think a single Mennonite sect has ever questioned dairy farming ever.

I think this is consistent with the general anabaptist principle of progressive revelation, the Adamic covenant was not what God wanted or expected of Noah. Likewise his covenant with Noah was not what he wanted from Moses and so on. And in these "... last days, he has spoken to us through his son..." What Jesus asks and expects is not what was wanted from the Mosaic covenant. Jesus taught little (nothing?) about Sabbath observance.

This illustrates to the imprecision of words like "liberal" or "conservative" to describe Mennonite practice and culture. I'm not always sure what people are talking about. In the case above, the anabaptist view of scripture is quite progressive (another word without precise definition) in comparison to fundamentalism. A consistent two kingdom world view that rejects nationalism and patriotism will often be labeled "liberal" even though it is based on an understanding of scripture that dates back to the early church. I suspect usually people use "liberal" and "conservative" as a measure of cultural traditionalism.

[Ken]

All my dairy farmer relatives work on Sunday's for example. Yet no Mennonite church has ever questioned their choice of profession. A strict reading of the 10 commandments might lead one to conclude that dairy farming is inconsistent with the 3rd Commandment. Yet that never seems to be an issue ever, and I don't think a single Mennonite sect has ever questioned dairy farming ever.

I think this is consistent with the general anabaptist principle of progressive revelation, the Adamic covenant was not what God wanted or expected of Noah. Likewise his covenant with Noah was not what he wanted from Moses and so on. And in these "... last days, he has spoken to us through his son..." What Jesus asks and expects is not what was wanted from the Mosaic covenant. Jesus taught little (nothing?) about Sabbath observance.

This illustrates to the imprecision of words like "liberal" or "conservative" to describe Mennonite practice and culture. I'm not always sure what people are talking about. In the case above, the anabaptist view of scripture is quite progressive (another word without precise definition) in comparison to fundamentalism. A consistent two kingdom world view that rejects nationalism and patriotism will often be labeled "liberal" even though it is based on an understanding of scripture that dates back to the early church. I suspect usually people use "liberal" and "conservative" as a measure of cultural traditionalism.

My point was more along the lines that many conservative Mennonite congregations would look askance at many professions or people who have to work on Sundays but give dairy farmers a free pass on this one. However becoming a dairy farmer is every bit as much of a choice of profession as say chosing to become a doctor and having to take call on Sundays because people still get sick and in accidents on Sundays (just like the cows have to be milked on Sunday).

[Sudsy]

Not everyone. There are still Christians who do the same.

Yes, 'everyone' is too inclusive. Seems though the emphasis is often on 'keeping clear of sinners' as we might be drawn into their sinning than it is to 'seek and to save those who are lost'. This kind of isolation is how the Pharisees lived and Jesus rebuked them. If Anabaptism isn't more than growth through having children, then is this not a form of racism ?

I didn't mean "everyone" as in every person. I mean everyone as in every different denomination who would be competing to be the most faithfully Christian in Christ's eyes. As in while the Catholics, Lutherans, Mormons, Mennonites, Baptists, etc. are all off competing and arguing for first place in Christ's eyes he would actually be off ministering to the unchurched and poor just like in New Testiment times

At least that's the image I would have.

Yes, in that sense, I agree. Reminds me of Paul's early words to the Corinthians where this competition thing was active and he tried to stop it. It grew into these Christianity tribes we have today and I doubt if Jesus would be a member of any of it.

But when the teachers of religious law who were Pharisees saw him eating with tax collectors and other sinners, they asked his disciples, “Why does he eat with such scum?” When Jesus heard this, he told them, “Healthy people don’t need a doctor—sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners.”

Mark 2:16,17 NLT

[barnhart]

My point was more along the lines that many conservative Mennonite congregations would look askance at many professions or people who have to work on Sundays but give dairy farmers a free pass on this one. However becoming a dairy farmer is every bit as much of a choice of profession as say chosing to become a doctor and having to take call on Sundays because people still get sick and in accidents on Sundays (just like the cows have to be milked on Sunday).

I know what you are saying, and I agree. My greater complaint is with the metric this thread proposes to measure. I just used your example to insert my own opinions into someone else's discussion...

[joshuabgood]

My point was more along the lines that many conservative Mennonite congregations would look askance at many professions or people who have to work on Sundays but give dairy farmers a free pass on this one. However becoming a dairy farmer is every bit as much of a choice of profession as say chosing to become a doctor and having to take call on Sundays because people still get sick and in accidents on Sundays (just like the cows have to be milked on Sunday).

I know what you are saying, and I agree. My greater complaint is with the metric this thread proposes to measure. I just used your example to insert my own opinions into someone else's discussion...

Liberal and conservative, when used by Menno's in polls like this are often a measure of mere cultural assimilation more than anything else. As is the case here, in my view. Who has preserved the ethnic enclave and who has not. The most effective way to preserve the enclave is to preserve the language. Hence the Piker Mennonites remain nearly untouched by American culture.

[Hats Off]

All my dairy farmer relatives work on Sunday's for example. Yet no Mennonite church has ever questioned their choice of profession. A strict reading of the 10 commandments might lead one to conclude that dairy farming is inconsistent with the 3rd Commandment. Yet that never seems to be an issue ever, and I don't think a single Mennonite sect has ever questioned dairy farming ever.

I think this is consistent with the general anabaptist principle of progressive revelation, the Adamic covenant was not what God wanted or expected of Noah. Likewise his covenant with Noah was not what he wanted from Moses and so on. And in these "... last days, he has spoken to us through his son..." What Jesus asks and expects is not what was wanted from the Mosaic covenant. Jesus taught little (nothing?) about Sabbath observance.

This illustrates to the imprecision of words like "liberal" or "conservative" to describe Mennonite practice and culture. I'm not always sure what people are talking about. In the case above, the anabaptist view of scripture is quite progressive (another word without precise definition) in comparison to fundamentalism. A consistent two kingdom world view that rejects nationalism and patriotism will often be labeled "liberal" even though it is based on an understanding of scripture that dates back to the early church. I suspect usually people use "liberal" and "conservative" as a measure of cultural traditionalism.

My point was more along the lines that many conservative Mennonite congregations would look askance at many professions or people who have to work on Sundays but give dairy farmers a free pass on this one. However becoming a dairy farmer is every bit as much of a choice of profession as say chosing to become a doctor and having to take call on Sundays because people still get sick and in accidents on Sundays (just like the cows have to be milked on Sunday).

Dairy farmers may milk their cows on Sunday, but some don't allow milk pickup on Sunday, paying for an extra weekly pickup instead. In Indiana, some dairy farmers bought a milk truck so they could schedule milk pickup to avoid Sunday. And they don't do field work on Sunday. We used to do extra chores on Saturday so less would need to be done on Sunday.