CAM Molestation Issue

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Josh

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Josh »

mike wrote:What I understood Ernie to say is that some of what was said is true and there were some inaccuracies. I believe this is very possible. Trudy Metzger's blog posts, and folks' posts and comments on social media, are not the inspired word of God. We have snippets of information but none of us, her included, knows all the information. I am not going to place my full and complete trust in any person's perspective and knowledge.
Of course not, but Metzger’s information is well-researched, well-sourced, and she has brought it to the appropriate parties in private. The burden of proof is to disprove what she is saying.

For reference, she is part of a large, respected Anabaptist church, under the pastoral leadership of Bruxy Cavey. She is also in a Ph.D programme at a respected Canadian university and already has earned a Master’s.

If someone thinks she is lying or engaging in misconduct, I strongly recommend pursuing that via either church or academic channels. If she behaves in unethical conduct, there will be very serious consequences for her, and many eyes are on her.
I think we should focus on what is not in dispute, and not quibble over details. I don't believe that either Trudy or CAM is intentionally lying. All parties in this situation are deeply hurting and are in difficult straits, and are trying to navigate the situation as best they can, some working with victims, some with the perpetrator and his family, and some with the severe effects this has for CAM. I will accept that all parties are at least trying to proceed in good faith unless there is evidence otherwise.
There’s a preponderance of evidence some people are not acting in good faith. How do we proceed?
The real problem in this situation is Jeriah Mast and he must bear the primary responsibility. Don't forget that.
The real problem is people in authority who accomodated Jeriah Mast and then orchestrated hush money. They they ignored people who brought this to their attention (like yours truly).

Don’t forget that, either.
There are people who want to see CAM or Trudy or other involved parties discredited. Motives like that are a distraction.

Situations like this bring out all the instant experts, armchair quarterbacks, and folks who want to destroy or hurt people, groups of people, or organizations for other reasons. Scandals are red meat for people with a prior agenda. I read Trudy's writing with an open mind and respect her work but I assume she does not know everything or interpret everything correctly, just like any other human.
Are you saying Metzger has wrong motives? What do you think her motives are?

More importantly, why did nobody speak out except her?
Josh wrote:There is a “united effort” to prevent things like this from being seen in the light of day. We can see it in our culture in responses like Ernie’s, where he complains that Trudy Metzger was wrong to make the blog post public, and also makes a baseless allegation she lied in her blog post.
I understand Ernie to be expressing his opinion that the "details of darkness" should not be publicized. That is a valid opinion and worthy of discussion. If you feel otherwise I think you should explain your view.
Speaking as a seeker who came into a Mennonite church, I find this inaccurate. Plain people gossip about all kinds of sordid details. They just don’t like outsiders learning about them and prefer a veneer of “respectability”.

Someone who is serially molesting children doesn’t deserve privacy. Metzger would have been glad to keep details more private. Without details, she gets accused of being inaccurate or a liar.
Also, you say his claim of inaccuracies is baseless, but you also are not God, and don't know everything. In accusing Ernie of baseless allegations you are doing the very same thing. Be careful about what you're saying.
He needs to bring evidence of his claims, or else say nothing at all.

He could make and publish his own statement. And remember, Mike, this isn’t my first run-in with this.
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mike

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by mike »

Josh, all I know is what has been posted publicly. You clearly have a lot more information about these types of things than I do, so I won't argue with you about it. I'm just basing my statements on what I know and see for myself. I'm just one guy, and I don't have nearly the amount of connections you do in the Anabaptist world. All I can say is may the truth come out.
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steve-in-kville

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by steve-in-kville »

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Wade

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Wade »

How come if something looks like witchcraft or quackery we get all kinds of armchair critics, jumping to conclusions, and witch hunts, while with sexual abuse we should slow down and wait for the facts, have compassion on the perpetrator, and not jump to any conclusions?!
We are willing to stay so far away from something that looks evil but we don't even know if it is, but something that is clearly horrible we need to take a different approach because it is one of our own... The inconsistency makes me sick!
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mike

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by mike »

Wade wrote:How come if something looks like witchcraft or quackery we get all kinds of armchair critics, jumping to conclusions, and witch hunts, while with sexual abuse we should slow down and wait for the facts, have compassion on the perpetrator, and not jump to any conclusions?!
We are willing to stay so far away from something that looks evil but we don't even know if it is, but something that is clearly horrible we need to take a different approach because it is one of our own... The inconsistency makes me sick!
I don't see anybody here being ambivalent or unwilling to approach the issue of the evil that Jeriah Mast committed. The primary questions at stake now in my opinion are what the organizations knew and when, whether they did the right thing, and whether the crimes will be faced up to in Haitian court. These are things that are not yet clear. Most of us are not in a position to know more than what has been publicly released, or to demand anything. But we can express our thoughts and opinions and that is what is happening. I noticed that a prominent and respected conservative Anabaptist expressed the opinion on social media that the perpetrator should return to Haiti and account for his actions. I am sure there are many more who feel this way. This whole thing is in progress and I hope it will be resolved with fairness, justice, grace, honesty, and humility.
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queserasera_2

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by queserasera_2 »

I'm not sure how many more facts we need from him. He's confessed at least to some. At that point, all allegations are believable. God's punishment for this was death by stoning. I'm not sure that prison is too much to ask.

At this point, my bigger concern is what responsibility lies with his church leadership and with Christian Aid Ministries. It is my understanding that his church leadership was aware of the details of his sins when they sent him to Haiti. My question is whether Christian Aid Ministries was aware of his sins. If they were not, then his church leadership needs to answer for the cover-up. If they were aware, they need to answer for the cover-up and also restructure their vetting process for employees. Since at least one member of his church leadership is heavily involved at Christian Aid Ministries, I am dubious that the information was not known. Obviously, it came out while he was in Haiti years ago. I can somewhat forgive the ignorance of the approach that if such a person is repentant, we should just forgive them and not constantly remind him of his past sin. Obviously, that needs correction, but it is not an uncommon thought process.
What I need to see now to feel good about continuing to donate to Christian Aid Ministries is a clear statement that this behavior will not be tolerated in their employees whether past or present. That any employee found to be guilty of this behavior will be immediately fired and reported to the law enforcement. And that all avenues of support will be offered to all victims. And by that, I mean counseling, boots on the ground meeting with the victims, and financial assistance for relocation as necessary. We don't get to escape responsibility simply because the victims are poor and foreign.
And I would really like to see a statement from his home church leadership apologizing for the damage he was allowed to do in Jesus's name.

And I consider his wife and any children he may have to be amongst his victims. They deserve every compassion and support.
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Hats Off

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Hats Off »

Wade wrote:How come if something looks like witchcraft or quackery we get all kinds of armchair critics, jumping to conclusions, and witch hunts, while with sexual abuse we should slow down and wait for the facts, have compassion on the perpetrator, and not jump to any conclusions?!
We are willing to stay so far away from something that looks evil but we don't even know if it is, but something that is clearly horrible we need to take a different approach because it is one of our own... The inconsistency makes me sick!
When we talk about those other issues, we are talking more about theories and not so much about people. In this case we are talking about an actual case involving actual people and an actual organization. Because of the nature of this situation, we approach it differently than we do when discussing theories. My plea is that since this is currently an ongoing investigation, and there actual facts to come out, we do not attack each other personally, nor state our opinions of what is taking place too strongly. The whole situation is sickening - words don't seem adequate to express our revulsion but attacking each other doesn't help. It is because it is so horrible that we don't want to jump to uninformed conclusions.

Josh, there is a time and place to not release all the sordid details. If we want to read all the lurid details, we could just go read a Sandra Brown work of fiction. Better yet, we need to realise that if the right people know enough to make proper decisions, we need not know everything. It is enough that we are aware that this took place and that we are working towards a place in Anabaptist world where nasty situations are dealt with properly and in a timely fashion.
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Josh

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Josh »

Josh, there is a time and place to not release all the sordid details. If we want to read all the lurid details, we could just go read a Sandra Brown work of fiction. Better yet, we need to realise that if the right people know enough to make proper decisions, we need not know everything. It is enough that we are aware that this took place and that we are working towards a place in Anabaptist world where nasty situations are dealt with properly and in a timely fashion.
Hats Off,

With respect, I’ve been aware of this for several years and have shared zero sordid details with anyone outside of proper authorities.

Sordid details are sometimes needed. Not sharing them means certain people downplay how serious the crimes and sins are. In this case, some details are needed in order to make it clear this was on-going for years, and premeditated.

There are many more sordid details that haven’t been shared.
Better yet, we need to realise that if the right people know enough to make proper decisions, we need not know everything.
The “right people” have done nothing for years. The proper decisions haven’t been made. And trust me, you and me don’t know everything. This is just a small part of the rottenness that goes far beyond just CAM and Jeriah Mast.
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Hats Off

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Hats Off »

I believe you, Josh. I was trying to explain a little more about Ernie's statement that you protested. And I think we do realize how completely awful this situation is. Like I said before, mere words don't seem adequate.
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Josh

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Josh »

Hats Off wrote:I believe you, Josh. I was trying to explain a little more about Ernie's statement that you protested. And I think we do realize how completely awful this situation is. Like I said before, mere words don't seem adequate.
I’m having a hard time handling some of this, as I brought these concerns forward years ago. Since I became a Christian 5 years ago, 4 1/2 of it seems to have been spent facing confronting serious abuse problems, and personal attacks against me for daring to speak up to anyone. With Haiti and CAM I kept my mouth shut (other than to people in positions of authority in CAM, and to Jeriah Mast’s leadership at his church).

I can’t stop thinking about and grieving about everyone who has been damaged and hurt and abused and raped and molested since then.

I am not in a state of being unforgiving or angry - yet - to those who currently are trying to downplay this. But I am quite dismayed and concerned for souls. How does Jesus feel? What will be the answer in judgment day?
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