Incompatible beliefs

[barnhart]

I agree with both of the last two posts.

[cooper]

There are large swaths of Anabaptists whose soteriology leaves many in the church unsure about their relationship and standing with God, which paralyzes people and keeps them from flourishing spiritually and feeling like they have something they can offer the world.

Can you say more about this? I think I recognize what you're saying, but I can't articulate it.

[Ernie]

There are large swaths of Anabaptists whose soteriology leaves many in the church unsure about their relationship and standing with God, which paralyzes people and keeps them from flourishing spiritually and feeling like they have something they can offer the world.

Can you say more about this? I think I recognize what you're saying, but I can't articulate it.

Way too many Anabaptists in Old Order and Ultra-conservative settings (as well as some intermediates and moderate conservatives) live under anxiety or a crushing weight of uncertainty about their present standing with God and their eternal destiny. (Maybe there significant numbers of progressive-conservatives and more progressive who struggle with this also. I'm not familiar with those camps.)

There are way too many other Anabaptists who are sure they are going to heaven despite not being fully surrendered to Christ. (As David Bercot said many years ago when asked how he counsels those who struggle with assurance of salvation, "I've never met or heard of anyone who struggles with assurance of salvation. Down here in Texas, everybody is going to heaven and I'm trying get them to question their assurance of salvation.") I wish more Anabaptists who are not surrendered to Christ would question their salvation.

Both camps indicate a bad soteriology or at least bad teaching, IMO.

Ideally, every Christian should be examining themselves regularly whether they are indeed in Christ, yet being generally at rest (secure) if they are living for the Lord and not living in known sin. I understand that new Christians may question their salvation and even older ones may question if Satan attacks/accuses them, but I don't think this should result in an epidemic like we see in many Old Order and conservative groups. Some surrendered Christians are driven to suicidal thoughts because of their anxiety. Others can't be evangelists or disciplers of others because they are too uncertain about their standing with God.

[Soloist]

There are large swaths of Anabaptists whose soteriology leaves many in the church unsure about their relationship and standing with God, which paralyzes people and keeps them from flourishing spiritually and feeling like they have something they can offer the world.

Can you say more about this? I think I recognize what you're saying, but I can't articulate it.

Way too many Anabaptists in Old Order and Ultra-conservative settings (as well as some intermediates and moderate conservatives) live under anxiety or a crushing weight of uncertainty about their present standing with God and their eternal destiny. (Maybe there significant numbers of progressive-conservatives and more progressive who struggle with this also. I'm not familiar with those camps.)

Are you referring to a “living hope” versus “assurance”?
Or are you speaking of something more specific?

[Ernie]

Can you say more about this? I think I recognize what you're saying, but I can't articulate it.

Way too many Anabaptists in Old Order and Ultra-conservative settings (as well as some intermediates and moderate conservatives) live under anxiety or a crushing weight of uncertainty about their present standing with God and their eternal destiny. (Maybe there significant numbers of progressive-conservatives and more progressive who struggle with this also. I'm not familiar with those camps.)

Are you referring to a “living hope” versus “assurance”?
Or are you speaking of something more specific?

Too many Anabaptists do not have either a living hope nor health assurance. I don't care which one people have as long as they have one of them.

[cooper]

There are large swaths of Anabaptists whose soteriology leaves many in the church unsure about their relationship and standing with God, which paralyzes people and keeps them from flourishing spiritually and feeling like they have something they can offer the world

Many Anabaptists ordain people who do not meet the character qualifications for elders and deacons. They make excuse for this by saying that "we got to work with what we have" or "we all have our weaknesses and shortcomings". This does two things. It lowers the bar and makes a lower bar acceptable. And it creates for a lot of the dysfunction in many churches.

I think both of these go together. I have deep relationships with my pastors in ways that were inaccessible in the ultra-conservative setting. That's not been easy, it's taken a lot of work. I think being known in a real way (our strengths, weaknesses, failures, and victories) is important to feel spiritually settled. In my experience in an ultra-conservative setting, when people experience things in their spiritual life, they need someone to talk with; there isn't space for that. These unresolved issues bring paralysis.

[Soloist]

There are large swaths of Anabaptists whose soteriology leaves many in the church unsure about their relationship and standing with God, which paralyzes people and keeps them from flourishing spiritually and feeling like they have something they can offer the world

Many Anabaptists ordain people who do not meet the character qualifications for elders and deacons. They make excuse for this by saying that "we got to work with what we have" or "we all have our weaknesses and shortcomings". This does two things. It lowers the bar and makes a lower bar acceptable. And it creates for a lot of the dysfunction in many churches.

I think both of these go together. I have deep relationships with my pastors in ways that were inaccessible in the ultra-conservative setting. That's not been easy, it's taken a lot of work. I think being known in a real way (our strengths, weaknesses, failures, and victories) is important to feel spiritually settled. In my experience in an ultra-conservative setting, when people experience things in their spiritual life, they need someone to talk with; there isn't space for that. These unresolved issues bring paralysis.

I remember sitting in our church and I heard one of the ministry confess to having looked at a woman at a job site. Maybe it doesn’t happen always but there is openness in some places.

[JayP]

I am truly baffled by the focus on assurance. And I do mean baffled.
To be sure or confident you are living up to the demands of Christianity seems so full of hubris.
A lot of Christianity is ringing the balances. Being down on yourself, in the sense of “I am not good enough” if it leaves you paralyzed and hopeless is wrong. But certainty is equally wrong. A value of the brethren (in any sense, be it your congregation, family members, friends, ministry, for me confession, etc) is an independent sounding board of “how am I doing?”

The entire Overtly and excessive Assurance of Salvation in anabaptist circles should ring the “influence of Protestantism bell” loudly.
Evaluate and measure what we do. Seek forgiveness and Charity. Exercise the same. Do what you know is right, seek the best guidance you can. DO what you know is right the best you can and hen hope with love for God’s mercy.

How can anyone think or know (as opposed to optimistically having some degree of confidence) they ABSOLUTELY are saved? And if you are, how about tomorrow dude? Again, it is Fundementalists that carry their assurance into tomorrow (when they step all over someone). A true Christian approaches their salvation with faith and trembling.

The raise your hand and be counted among the saved so flies in the face of Jesus’ teachings
We are not even aware of the tests. I am pretty sure the Good Thief on the cross was not thinking five minutes earlier that he was saved. Seriously. How does God think versus man? What chance would you give the Good Thief five minutes earlier, or Peter after he denied Christ the third time?

[JayP]

I thought I would post again because aside from my comments on assurance, I think many in the earlier conversations are missing a few points.

I th8nk folks miss a few points in the earlier comparisons of Anabaptism compared to Catholicism and Protestantism.
Of course many aspects of Catholicism like big cathedrals and formalized theological thinking seemed like a big gap.
But it is at the core levels that they share beliefs. And is not that inevitable? For anabaptism did not spring forth from some form of spontaneous generation but from what came before. Catholicism is in some ways a very big tent. While a theologian is cooking up “just war theory” the Franciscans are hardly sharpening their swords. I am not trying to debate the which point is right or wrong, rather, one can see where Anabaptism grew from, and at its core it is about he sermon on the mount as much as anything.

Whereas the political natures of what fueled the spread of Protestantism leaves in so badly flawed. Mix in the strong Calvinistic influences and yo7 have one very badly baked caked. It is why I have always been very sympathetic to those Anabaptist thinkers that teach against and fear Protestant Fundementalist influences on Anabaptism. Anabaptism has little to fear from Catholicism for the things that they would object to most are SO UNLIKELY to gain influence.

If I may, the analogy for I think for many that post here is they need not fear the sins (that are terrible sins) like cheating on their spouse, killing raping and burning down buildings but rather the subtle sins of greed or envy. Eastern is not going to go build some giant Cathedral. Indeed, I find terms like dispensationalism or soteriology laughable in the anabaptist setting. My old order Mennonite friends could not define those terms. And are better off that way I suspect.

[Neto]

I am truly baffled by the focus on assurance. And I do mean baffled.
To be sure or confident you are living up to the demands of Christianity seems so full of hubris.
A lot of Christianity is ringing the balances. Being down on yourself, in the sense of “I am not good enough” if it leaves you paralyzed and hopeless is wrong. But certainty is equally wrong. A value of the brethren (in any sense, be it your congregation, family members, friends, ministry, for me confession, etc) is an independent sounding board of “how am I doing?”

The entire Overtly and excessive Assurance of Salvation in anabaptist circles should ring the “influence of Protestantism bell” loudly.
Evaluate and measure what we do. Seek forgiveness and Charity. Exercise the same. Do what you know is right, seek the best guidance you can. DO what you know is right the best you can and hen hope with love for God’s mercy.

How can anyone think or know (as opposed to optimistically having some degree of confidence) they ABSOLUTELY are saved? And if you are, how about tomorrow dude? Again, it is Fundementalists that carry their assurance into tomorrow (when they step all over someone). A true Christian approaches their salvation with faith and trembling.

The raise your hand and be counted among the saved so flies in the face of Jesus’ teachings
We are not even aware of the tests. I am pretty sure the Good Thief on the cross was not thinking five minutes earlier that he was saved. Seriously. How does God think versus man? What chance would you give the Good Thief five minutes earlier, or Peter after he denied Christ the third time?

I think that the difference lies between those whose confidence in their "salvation status" is focused on themselves, what they do, some conversion experience for which they have the date and place firmly burned into their memory - that kind of 'assurance' in contrast to a simple confidence in the ability of Jesus to save, and the desire & willingness of Jesus to save. He can, and he wants to. That is no self-assurance, it is Jesus-assurance.