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Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:34 am I was told over the weekend that OO Amish in Lancaster make these changes without agreement to do so. Somebody starts doing something, and if he is not visited by the bishop, then others start doing it as well until it becomes more common place. The bishop may speak against it publicly, but that does not hold a lot of water. If you know of districts where this is not the case, I would be glad to know about it.

steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:36 am

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:34 am I was told over the weekend that OO Amish in Lancaster make these changes without agreement to do so. Somebody starts doing something, and if he is not visited by the bishop, then others start doing it as well until it becomes more common place. The bishop may speak against it publicly, but that does not hold a lot of water. If you know of districts where this is not the case, I would be glad to know about it.

That sounds like every organization I've ever been affiliated with

steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:48 am

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:24 am

steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:36 amThat sounds like every organization I've ever been affiliated with

It doesn't happen in most ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches.

Not sure I agree. I am told that is how EPMC loosened up over the internet issue. People were using loopholes and work-a-rounds (or just kept their mouth shut).

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:54 am The nature of how bishops’ committees work means almost every OO district is gradually becoming more liberal. Meanwhile other groups like the Dan church and certain New Order groups are not, or actually are becoming stricter.

Eventually the O/O’s will be like Beachys (or more likely like RNoC) and groups like the Danners will replace the OO.

Neto wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:58 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:54 am The nature of how bishops’ committees work means almost every OO district is gradually becoming more liberal. Meanwhile other groups like the Dan church and certain New Order groups are not, or actually are becoming stricter.

Eventually the O/O’s will be like Beachys (or more likely like RNoC) and groups like the Danners will replace the OO.

I have no (business) contact with Dan Church or Swartzentruber Amish, so I'm asking here - Do you See change in those groups?

As to the Old Order becoming like the Beachy - that appears to me to be a "moving target", so I tend to take your statement as referring to where the Beachy were several decades ago. (But they have also splintered, so it's getting harder to identify them, at least for me.)

Then there are the congregations that I'm tempted to call "Old Order Beachy". But even they have relaxed some positions of the past, and now use some functions of the internet, like email. (My contact with them is only in Kentucky and Illinois, so not very well-rounded.)

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:54 am

steve-in-kville wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:48 am

Ernie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:24 am
It doesn't happen in most ultra-conservative and intermediate-conservative churches.

Not sure I agree. I am told that is how EPMC loosened up over the internet issue. People were using loopholes and work-a-rounds (or just kept their mouth shut).

EPMC in the present day is primarily loosening because bishops simply do stuff they want to do and nobody can tell them no. The rank and file hasn’t started using Internet for example, but the bishops just use it anyway on their businesses.

cooper wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:55 pm I believe Eastern had a vote on allowing the Internet several years ago and allowing the Internet passed because ordained people's vote had greater weight than lay people. It's important to consider that possible this variance between the ministry and lay people was because the ordained were trying to avoid a split. A split still happened, however it's smaller than if the Internet had been banned and the pro-Internet folks had left.

mike wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:21 pm There, that should smoke out the EPMC members here.

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:15 pm

Neto wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 12:58 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:54 am The nature of how bishops’ committees work means almost every OO district is gradually becoming more liberal. Meanwhile other groups like the Dan church and certain New Order groups are not, or actually are becoming stricter.

Eventually the O/O’s will be like Beachys (or more likely like RNoC) and groups like the Danners will replace the OO.

As to the Old Order becoming like the Beachy - that appears to me to be a "moving target", so I tend to take your statement as referring to where the Beachy were several decades ago. (But they have also splintered, so it's getting harder to identify them, at least for me.)

Then there are the congregations that I'm tempted to call "Old Order Beachy". But even they have relaxed some positions of the past, and now use some functions of the internet, like email. (My contact with them is only in Kentucky and Illinois, so not very well-rounded.)

I mean that the O/O now have the Beachy mindset. Which is to allow rogues to do whatever they want and abuse church institutions to get away with it.

When I first came around here (first visit Fall 1982, moved here end of Summer 1983) it wasn't like that, at least to my perception. (I had never been in any area where there were Beachy, so I didn't have a reference point. Except perhaps I might have been in the same areas in central Kansas, but they were "invisible" to me - my relatives and MB friends there simply not moving in the same circles at all.)

When I moved here, the Beachy bishops were all still from my father-in-law's generation (he was born in 1921), and they were also all former Amish who had left the Old Order before the formation of the New Order. They had all left because they had come to genuine faith, a lot because of the things they saw and experienced in CPS during WWII. They had become involved in a Bible study movement among the younger Amish, and were either excommunicated or pushed to leave by the controlling bishops at that time. Anyway, when I first came here, the "rules" about no radios, etc. were still very closely followed. Women were required to wear the black hose, and open toe shoes were not approved, even with the stockings. Change really speed up after the older bishops, those who had experienced somewhat more "dramatic" conversions out of spiritual unawareness, either passed away or left the office to younger men who had more-so grown up in the Beachy church. This was also a time of social upheaval in the larger culture, and they were also of such age that they had been involved in alternate service during the Vietnam "Conflict". (I missed that by about a 12 or 18 months, the draft, I mean.)

cooper wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:55 pm
I believe Eastern had a vote on allowing the Internet several years ago and allowing the Internet passed because ordained people's vote had greater weight than lay people. It's important to consider that possible this variance between the ministry and lay people was because the ordained were trying to avoid a split. A split still happened, however it's smaller than if the Internet had been banned and the pro-Internet folks had left.