ken_sylvania wrote:Valerie wrote:Well this is the issue I have- most people in the Anabaptist world seems to think the Church 'immediately' (almost) fell away and became apostate and there was no longer a 'visible' church.
That's interesting. If I have ever come across that idea, it has certainly not been very often. The Mennonites that I am familiar with would believe very strongly that there has always been a vibrant "visible" church. There have been various times throughout history when the true church has been persecuted by the false church, particularly as that false church co-opted the power of the state to push its agenda, but there has always been a visible church that has been actually following God.
Valerie wrote:I think that speaks very low of what Jesus promised, and of the Holy Spirit that was deposited at Pentecost (Pentecost Sunday was yesterday, the birthday of the Church). When the Church became the Israel of God according to Apostle Paul, why would it be so hidden, so obscure? When Israel was God's Church of the Old Testament, the whole world knew about Israel, and their God- if the Apostles were taking the Gospel to the entire world to convert it, reconciling those which had no hope before, to God, why would we assume it to be an invisible Church, only this small remnant throughout this Church age? I just cannot see it that way- it speaks very weak of the Holy Spirit. IF groups came up against the established Church, where were they when the Church canonized the Holy Scriptures? It's very perplexing to me to hold that view that just because someone gathered followings after themselves against the Church, that God handed the Church over to them- Israel of the OT was never a perfect Church- but God didn't discard them, and we are grafted into them- as Jesus said, Salvation is of the Jews- so why would we think that just because the New Testament Church had issues, that God discarded them?
It is repulsive to me to think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church of the middle ages as being the true church of God. The wickedness of some of their leaders in the highest positions is no secret, and the cruelty that they inflicted on those who disagreed with them shows that were "of their father, the devil." When a group of people walks away from God, they no longer have a valid claim to be "the Church."
I don't know Ken, because all through Israel's history, there were wicked leaders and good leaders, but they were always Israel- and within Israel, there were a remnant, and even with their wicked history and God's warnings, & punishments, He didn't cast them off & make someone else His Church- would He handle His Church in the New Covenant, any different if there were 'some' leaders who were not right, they were still the Church? Are you suggesting entire congregations were to blame if they had a wicked leader? I don't know this part of church history at all- I do know many who are in these churches that are very sincere followers of Christ, and so they have made it through and still going strong and to say they are not the Church because of some-would be like saying Israel wasn't Israel because of some of their leaders blaming 'all' the people because of 'some' of the people- I am trying to understand how God would be seeing all this, not my personal opinion- He had an organized body from the beginning of Pentecost- and He gave some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, some Pastors & Teachers (Ephesians 4:11) Did He raise up a prophet to discard the established Church? It became a 'worldwide' Church, for the first time in history- growing, developing, etc- I don't read in any of the prophecies regarding the New Covenant & New Israel of God, where He would at some point, start it over again and again with a variety of different understandings of how His Church should be organized- maybe He gave a lot of freedom in this area-again I lack the knowledge of history to see if the entire church became corrupt- or if they were going to persevere as Israel did. Even when Christ came, there remained Israel that we were grafted into, in spite of the fact there were some pretty bad days and years, for Israel- I do know, He is longsuffering. Hierarchy, seemed necessary and we see it starting in the New Testament, in the infant days of the Church- to keep such a worldwide body in the Unity that Christ was emphasizing seemed there had to be some type of hierarchy to keep it "One" and on the same page as it grew & matured- (I never used to think about things like this, just was a content lil' church goer happy in my own denomination for decades). Probably because I do know of so many faithful in the established Church- i have a hard time agreeing that God gave up on them and started over. But if He did, it seems there would be an obvious "oneness" about the new Church too- but we don't see that out of the Reformation either.