joshuabgood wrote: ↑Thu Jul 27, 2023 1:12 pm
Wouldn't a group like EPMC be mostly nontransitional?
I believe Ernie has proposed that they are becoming an Old Order group as they source far fewer converts from more conservative groups than they used to, and historically they weren’t really a group that tried to harvest people from plainer groups like Amish. Instead, they’re just a collection of Lancaster Conference people.
They do “supply” lots of ex-members to Pilgrim, Hope, etc. but that is only half of the transitional definition.
Not sure if "non-transitional" is meant to be a good thing when you list Swartzentruber and Danners as classic examples. Those are 2 of the most corrupt and lowest of low moral churches in the history of anabaptism. Especially Swartzentruber. I applaud any of those people who muster the fortitude to escape the clutches of that. I stand by this statement fully.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:21 am
Not sure if "non-transitional" is meant to be a good thing when you list Swartzentruber and Danners as classic examples. Those are 2 of the most corrupt and lowest of low moral churches in the history of anabaptism. Especially Swartzentruber. I applaud any of those people who muster the fortitude to escape the clutches of that. I stand by this statement fully.
As I see it, these are sociological labels. Whether they imply something good or bad is a separate discussion.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:21 am
Not sure if "non-transitional" is meant to be a good thing when you list Swartzentruber and Danners as classic examples. Those are 2 of the most corrupt and lowest of low moral churches in the history of anabaptism. Especially Swartzentruber. I applaud any of those people who muster the fortitude to escape the clutches of that. I stand by this statement fully.
The “transitional” label is indeed a negative label.
“Non-transitional” simply means it is not a transitional Anabaptist church. The church might be positive or negative.
Part of the reason “transitional” is negative (although I wouldn’t agree that Danners are the “most corrupt and lowest of low moral character in the history of Anabaptism”; are you really arguing they’re worse than Münsterites?) is that the person eventually ends up worse off, morally, than how they started. The final end is to continue to “transition” until one is not identifiably Christian at all.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:21 am
Not sure if "non-transitional" is meant to be a good thing when you list Swartzentruber and Danners as classic examples. Those are 2 of the most corrupt and lowest of low moral churches in the history of anabaptism. Especially Swartzentruber. I applaud any of those people who muster the fortitude to escape the clutches of that. I stand by this statement fully.
The “transitional” label is indeed a negative label.
“Non-transitional” simply means it is not a transitional Anabaptist church. The church might be positive or negative.
Part of the reason “transitional” is negative (although I wouldn’t agree that Danners are the “most corrupt and lowest of low moral character in the history of Anabaptism”; are you really arguing they’re worse than Münsterites?) is that the person eventually ends up worse off, morally, than how they started. The final end is to continue to “transition” until one is not identifiably Christian at all.
I will give you that the Danner church isn't to the level of the Swartzentruber.
I would rather be a God fearing liberal Mennonite than living in the dredges of the Swartzentrubers. You cannot tell me their plain ways and simple dress is preferable when they are r@ping their women and keeping their people so uneducated and superstitious that theynpractically fear their own shadows. There is no way the latter is better.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:22 am
I will give you that the Danner church isn't to the level of the Swartzentruber.
I would rather be a God fearing liberal Mennonite than living in the dredges of the Swartzentrubers. You cannot tell me their plain ways and simple dress is preferable when they are r@ping their women and keeping their people so uneducated and superstitious that theynpractically fear their own shadows. There is no way the latter is better.
I doubt they are all committing those acts… their plainness isn’t why they are sinning either. I disagree with the concept of “plainer the dress, the darker the heart”
I’m not saying that they are in the kingdom though, I find the choices they make to specifically impact the ability to witness and I would hold that against any group that refuses to adopt the native language.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:22 am
I will give you that the Danner church isn't to the level of the Swartzentruber.
I would rather be a God fearing liberal Mennonite than living in the dredges of the Swartzentrubers. You cannot tell me their plain ways and simple dress is preferable when they are r@ping their women and keeping their people so uneducated and superstitious that theynpractically fear their own shadows. There is no way the latter is better.
I doubt they are all committing those acts… their plainness isn’t why they are sinning either. I disagree with the concept of “plainer the dress, the darker the heart”
I’m not saying that they are in the kingdom though, I find the choices they make to specifically impact the ability to witness and I would hold that against any group that refuses to adopt the native language.
Based on my personal experience, I have a hard time not thinking the plainer the dress, the darker the heart. I know too many things.
ABC 123 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 10:22 am\
I would rather be a God fearing liberal Mennonite than living in the dredges of the Swartzentrubers. You cannot tell me their plain ways and simple dress is preferable when they are r@ping their women and keeping their people so uneducated and superstitious that theynpractically fear their own shadows. There is no way the latter is better.
Sexual abuse still happens in liberal Mennonite circles as does practice of witchcraft (I can think of an example where someone practices it openly).
I don't think it's fair at all to paint all Swartzentrubers as "rapists". But in any case...
... that is not the topic of this thread. Feel free to create other threads to criticise any denomination you wish. Of note, this thread is not to be used for criticising liberal Mennonite churches either (and I listed one of them in this thread as an example of a "non-transitional church").
Based on my personal experience, I have a hard time not thinking the plainer the dress, the darker the heart. I know too many things.
The Bible says not to be conformed to the world. I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it says being nonconformed to the world means someone has a "darker soul".
Neither do I see in the Bible any teaching that being conformed to the world's manner of dress, including expensive, fashionable, elaborate, prideful, or immodest attire, is something God wants us to do and that gets us closer to godliness.
(Mods - please feel free to move my response and Soloist's/ABC 123's above on this off-topic topic to a Bunny Trail thread.)
I learned some slightly different information about Hebron. This is a good example of the problems that happen that cause an otherwise good church to become "transitional Anabaptist".
In 1992, just over 60% (1 member) of Hartville Conservative Mennonite Church's membership voted to allow the radio. A large fraction of the membership did not support this, and asked to be released from their memberships at H.C.M.C., and those to constitute a new congregation, Hebron (Conservative) Mennonite Church. As they did so, they evaluated their purpose and the members chose to constitute what their practice would be.
They made a decision not to prohibit prints on dresses and men's shirts, but rather to admonish that prints need not be loud and showy, but instead be limited to what is practical to help hide stains and easy laundering for clothing worn by busy people doing household, field, and other types of work. The membership agreed that they would allow a time for old clothes and children's clothes to get worn out or grown out of, and new clothes made would conform to this pattern.
Several years ago, a Beachy split off that had formerly not allowed prints but where the membership was starting to do so, in addition to other novel clothing designs, experienced the bulk of its members desiring to leave and shut down shortly thereafter. Some of these members evaluated Hebron, but decided they did not want to go to Hebron as upon further inquiry they learned that Hebron would respectfully ask that they stick to prints & patterns that expressed what the membership had agreed show humility, thrift, practicality, modesty, and so forth. The would-be supplicants ended up deciding they were not interested and ended up seeking to transfer their membership elsewhere.
I have no reason at all to believe that the brethren at Hebron did this out of any desire to exclude, discourage, or "keep out" sincere Christian believers from seeking to attend and become members at their church. Everyone is an individual who can make free choices. If they want to wear loud, showy prints, then it doesn't really make sense for them to seek membership in a church that had made its prior practice for 20 years to avoid such prints.
I believe they were actually sincere in desiring to ease the entry of members into their church: they have accepted members from the Ohio Wisler churches who are accustomed to wearing prints of all kinds, and who essentially disagreed with Hebron's stance on prints, but wanted to join anyway. The brethren at Hebron accommodated them by stating it would be fine to continue to wear their clothes with otherwise unacceptable prints until they wore out, etc.
In practice, as it was told to me, those members have disregarded that as they lack personal conviction in this area and continue to wear whatever prints they want. This is a good example of the problem with "transitional Anabaptist churches": people coming from a more conservative background feel the liberty to ignore any new church rules their "more conservative" church didn't have.
(For full disclosure, my church allows all manner of prints, and many people believe they are loud, showy, and complex. I do not sit here and pass judgment on what the "right" prints are. I am simply saying the convictions for their own congregation by the brethren at Hebron should be respected.)
Josh wrote: ↑Fri Jul 28, 2023 12:58 pmIn practice, as it was told to me, those members have disregarded that as they lack personal conviction in this area and continue to wear whatever prints they want. This is a good example of the problem with "transitional Anabaptist churches": people coming from a more conservative background feel the liberty to ignore any new church rules their "more conservative" church didn't have.
Yes. we have this in our church.
We also have people in our church who feel the liberty to ignore any church rules and church practices that they don't think are necessary, even if they were never allowed to do these things in the more conservative churches they left.