Cleanliness, Godliness, Amish

[mike]

I would have a difficult time claiming that wearing 20th-century consumer products (which may be harmful; antiperspirants are linked to breast cancer, for example, and body sprays have been linked to cancer-causing chemicals as well[1]) has anything to do with "godliness".

Most people around most of the world have a strong body odor. It actually seems unreasonable to expect someone to use a lot of Western consumer products to meet Western expectations of what "cleanliness" is. If you spend any time in the mission, you will learn very quickly how the rest of the world works.

[1] Apologies for using CNN, a known fake-news source.

Washing oneself daily doesn't require 20th century consumer products. You can use old fashioned lye soaps for one example and you certainly don't need to use body spray or other "20th-century consumer products" to be clean. The only thing that is pretty tough to mask without some kind of commercial product is natural body odor, although I am sure there are "natural" deodorants out there.

Regardless, what I am interested in is not so much the ethics of "20th century consumer products" as whether this whole phenomenon of cleanliness or lack thereof is something intentional, or something to which they actually attach some kind of value, or whether it's just simply the unintentional result of their way of life.

[mike]

A midwife we used had Amish customers, and told us about an Amish lady who came in to her birthing center with manure and dirt all over her feet. Before she did anything else, she had to wash her up with soap and water or else the manure would have gotten all over her facility where maintaining a clean environment is, you know, kind of helpful. The Amish husband was rather sheepish about it and said they should have taken care of that at home.

Amish & midwives... the stories that could be told. Our midwife was full of them. Cringe worthy, for sure

Yes. The more cringe-worthy stories we heard revolved around Amish customers either not paying or being extremely miserly about paying for midwifery services. The interesting thing is she had an Amish woman from her community come on as an apprentice, and who learned about the situation and told her deacon. Suddenly payments started coming from all over the place from people she had served in the past.

[mike]

I am told by my Amish coworkers that hygiene has gotten better in the last few generations, largely due to the fact more Amish are entering the workforce and not just staying at home to farm.

Unsurprising. There are numerous occupations where a lack of basic hygiene will be a barrier to employment.

[steve-in-kville]

Yes. The more cringe-worthy stories we heard revolved around Amish customers either not paying or being extremely miserly about paying for midwifery services. The interesting thing is she had an Amish woman from her community come on as an apprentice, and who learned about the situation and told her deacon. Suddenly payments started coming from all over the place from people she had served in the past.

That story does not surprise me. I know of a handful of older folks that drive Amish and they face the same thing. They stopped driving for certain ones over the pandemic, as each trip ended in cut throat negotiations as to what was owed. They got tired of it.

[Josh]

I would have a difficult time claiming that wearing 20th-century consumer products (which may be harmful; antiperspirants are linked to breast cancer, for example, and body sprays have been linked to cancer-causing chemicals as well[1]) has anything to do with "godliness".

Most people around most of the world have a strong body odor. It actually seems unreasonable to expect someone to use a lot of Western consumer products to meet Western expectations of what "cleanliness" is. If you spend any time in the mission, you will learn very quickly how the rest of the world works.

[1] Apologies for using CNN, a known fake-news source.

Washing oneself daily doesn't require 20th century consumer products. You can use old fashioned lye soaps for one example and you certainly don't need to use body spray or other "20th-century consumer products" to be clean. The only thing that is pretty tough to mask without some kind of commercial product is natural body odor, although I am sure there are "natural" deodorants out there.

Regardless, what I am interested in is not so much the ethics of "20th century consumer products" as whether this whole phenomenon of cleanliness or lack thereof is something intentional, or something to which they actually attach some kind of value, or whether it's just simply the unintentional result of their way of life.

You’re still placing your 20th century, Western expectations on them, and not taking a step back to considering what was normal for most of human history and what is still normal around much of the globe.

[mike]

Washing oneself daily doesn't require 20th century consumer products. You can use old fashioned lye soaps for one example and you certainly don't need to use body spray or other "20th-century consumer products" to be clean. The only thing that is pretty tough to mask without some kind of commercial product is natural body odor, although I am sure there are "natural" deodorants out there.

Regardless, what I am interested in is not so much the ethics of "20th century consumer products" as whether this whole phenomenon of cleanliness or lack thereof is something intentional, or something to which they actually attach some kind of value, or whether it's just simply the unintentional result of their way of life.

You’re still placing your 20th century, Western expectations on them, and not taking a step back to considering what was normal for most of human history and what is still normal around much of the globe.

The idea of being clean is not a 20th century innovation. If you want to argue about this, please take it to another thread.

[steve-in-kville]

Since we already on the subject of Amish and childbirth, I'll tell this story... my wife has a friend that is a nurse on the maternity floor at our local hospital. They had an Amish couple give birth to their first child. Next morning, the doctor was ready to discharge and he went over some stuff with them. Doctor asks if they had any questions. First thing out of the dad's mouth was "How long until she can breed?"

The doctor never asked that question again.

[Grace]

Since we already on the subject of Amish and childbirth, I'll tell this story... my wife has a friend that is a nurse on the maternity floor at our local hospital. They had an Amish couple give birth to their first child. Next morning, the doctor was ready to discharge and he went over some stuff with them. Doctor asks if they had any questions. First thing out of the dad's mouth was "How long until she can breed?"

The doctor never asked that question again.

That might bring a chuckle, but it is kind of sad.

[Soloist]

At one point the idea of bathing regularly was something that only rich could do and there was this notion that being clean made you sicker.
Oddly enough, the cleanest areas (hospitals) have some of the most deadly bacteria…
We also have seen more allergies suspected from very clean environments… so perhaps clean, but not too clean.

I see nothing wrong with using deodorant, but natural stuff doesn’t last as long or work as well. Perhaps one should be a little understanding assuming they start the day not smelling like a pigpen. This is purely cultural to take offense at smell and if any of us lived 200 years ago, our noses would be a fair less easily offended.
One could just as easily be bothered by a woman’s hairy legs which is also cultural.
People used to wear one set of clothing all week and that was normal. Even on the Oregon trail which wasn’t that long ago (relatively speaking) rich travelers wouldn’t have brought more then a few sets of clothing. I have multiple work outfits and at least three sets of non work clothing… my clothes get washed often and none of this would have been normal even just 100 years ago. We are rich and have a level of cleanness which wasn’t known except in the last 80 years or so. My father would have grown up in the older way, his clothes might have been washed weekly at most and I doubt he had very many sets.
Wealth and culture.

[mike]

At one point the idea of bathing regularly was something that only rich could do and there was this notion that being clean made you sicker.
Oddly enough, the cleanest areas (hospitals) have some of the most deadly bacteria…
We also have seen more allergies suspected from very clean environments… so perhaps clean, but not too clean.

I see nothing wrong with using deodorant, but natural stuff doesn’t last as long or work as well. Perhaps one should be a little understanding assuming they start the day not smelling like a pigpen. This is purely cultural to take offense at smell and if any of us lived 200 years ago, our noses would be a fair less easily offended.
One could just as easily be bothered by a woman’s hairy legs which is also cultural.
People used to wear one set of clothing all week and that was normal. Even on the Oregon trail which wasn’t that long ago (relatively speaking) rich travelers wouldn’t have brought more then a few sets of clothing. I have multiple work outfits and at least three sets of non work clothing… my clothes get washed often and none of this would have been normal even just 100 years ago. We are rich and have a level of cleanness which wasn’t known except in the last 80 years or so. My father would have grown up in the older way, his clothes might have been washed weekly at most and I doubt he had very many sets.
Wealth and culture.

So would you assume then that the phenomenon we're discussing is simply incidental, just a byproduct of an older way of life for the Amish? As opposed to something they purposefully attach value to as part of their identity?