1689dave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:35 pm
Many Christians, their churches, and especially their church history, centered on killing Christians, are as far away from the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount as you can get. Are they saved?
This is an important question because Matthew calls the Sermon on the Mount the doctrine of Christ (Matthew 7:28). And John says any who do not have the doctrine of Christ do not have God (2 John 9–11). KJV Translation
I believe that some Christians went to war and perhaps killed other Christians because they believed God was using them in His ways of dealing with evil. They have a different understanding of God using them in this way than those who do not go to war and kill. More of an Old Testament understanding of how God worked.
Will God not save them due to their understanding ? I believe God is savings most of us despite many of our false understandings of the scriptures.
There are many verses such as Romans 10:9-10 that indicate what is bottom line required fot salvation. And Paul writes in 1 Cor 15:3-4 what is of first importance to being saved. Some Christians seem to believe they can make a list beyond even what scripture literally says to who is and who is not saved. It would appear that Jesus shocked those at judgment day who thought they were saved and He said He never knew them.
So, I think we should be careful about our judging who is and who is not saved. I do believe Rev 7:9, this 'little flock' spoken elsewhere in scripture, is a number no man can count dressed in white robes. I believe scripture says we should focus mostly on our own state of salvation and that we can know in our hearts now if we are truy saved.
barnhart wrote: ↑Tue Jan 03, 2023 7:47 am
I think part of the cloudiness of this issue is multiple understandings of "salvation" by which most modern Christians mean going to heaven when you die. Jesus' teaching around this was much fuller and encompassed all of life, not just the part after death. Maybe a better question would be "Since the Messiah has come, am I living in his kingdom?"
I think of salvation as a restoration of relationship with God the Father through Jesus. Reconciliation. And I agree with the above, because living in the kingdom means that I am a subject of the King. That, to me, is a relationship. And our King is a different kind of King, one who lived in humility and concern for others, constantly drawing people into a one-on-one relationship.
But as to the question posed here, this was one of the main differences in belief that brought about the Mennonite Brethren church in the Molotschna colony (spreading to the other colonies as well) - the idea that there are true believers who do not agree on everything we believe in. I am assuming that the central idea in the question has to do with non-resistance. Do I personally believe that there are true believers who do not accept that doctrine? Yes, I do. I am probably wrong about some doctrines I espouse, and I imagine I am not alone in this. We all can continue learning, continue becoming more like Jesus.
1689dave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:35 pm
Many Christians, their churches, and especially their church history, centered on killing Christians, are as far away from the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount as you can get. Are they saved?
This is an important question because Matthew calls the Sermon on the Mount the doctrine of Christ (Matthew 7:28). And John says any who do not have the doctrine of Christ do not have God (2 John 9–11). KJV Translation
I believe that some Christians went to war and perhaps killed other Christians because they believed God was using them in His ways of dealing with evil. They have a different understanding of God using them in this way than those who do not go to war and kill. More of an Old Testament understanding of how God worked.
Will God not save them due to their understanding ? I believe God is savings most of us despite many of our false understandings of the scriptures.
There are many verses such as Romans 10:9-10 that indicate what is bottom line required fot salvation. And Paul writes in 1 Cor 15:3-4 what is of first importance to being saved. Some Christians seem to believe they can make a list beyond even what scripture literally says to who is and who is not saved. It would appear that Jesus shocked those at judgment day who thought they were saved and He said He never knew them.
So, I think we should be careful about our judging who is and who is not saved. I do believe Rev 7:9, this 'little flock' spoken elsewhere in scripture, is a number no man can count dressed in white robes. I believe scripture says we should focus mostly on our own state of salvation and that we can know in our hearts now if we are truy saved.
What did Jesus mean when he said "You will know them by their fruits."?
I'm curious. I'd like to see people expand this list based on their own interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount. If you were to make a list of the things that all Christians should consider centrally important to the Sermon on the Mount, like the list below, what would your list look like?
1689dave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:12 pm
Here's my experience in living the Sermon.
Reading this, I think I notice these themes in your seeking first the kingdom of God according to the Sermon on the Mount:
1. Refusing to take part in warfare.
2. Seeking first the Kingdom of God and trusting God to meet your basic needs.
3. Doing what is right even when the world does not grasp what you are doing.
4. A willingness to sacrifice things close to your identity and your heart for the sake of your identity as a Christian. (I'm thinking of rock music here.)
5. A willingness to face persecution from the world.
I think these themes are all solidly based on the Sermon on the Mount. I appreciate your testimony here.
#1 is a bit too specific. I would rephrase it as a willingness to lay down one’s lawful, valid rights in order to not do violence to an unjust attacker. From there radiates the doctrine of nonresistance.
1689dave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:35 pm
Many Christians, their churches, and especially their church history, centered on killing Christians, are as far away from the teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount as you can get. Are they saved?
This is an important question because Matthew calls the Sermon on the Mount the doctrine of Christ (Matthew 7:28). And John says any who do not have the doctrine of Christ do not have God (2 John 9–11). KJV Translation
I believe that some Christians went to war and perhaps killed other Christians because they believed God was using them in His ways of dealing with evil. They have a different understanding of God using them in this way than those who do not go to war and kill. More of an Old Testament understanding of how God worked.
Will God not save them due to their understanding ? I believe God is savings most of us despite many of our false understandings of the scriptures.
There are many verses such as Romans 10:9-10 that indicate what is bottom line required fot salvation. And Paul writes in 1 Cor 15:3-4 what is of first importance to being saved. Some Christians seem to believe they can make a list beyond even what scripture literally says to who is and who is not saved. It would appear that Jesus shocked those at judgment day who thought they were saved and He said He never knew them.
So, I think we should be careful about our judging who is and who is not saved. I do believe Rev 7:9, this 'little flock' spoken elsewhere in scripture, is a number no man can count dressed in white robes. I believe scripture says we should focus mostly on our own state of salvation and that we can know in our hearts now if we are truy saved.
What did Jesus mean when he said "You will know them by their fruits."?
I doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation. And I think this is the same belief of many Anabaptists that knew believers who resisted evil by participating in wars. At least this is my experience talking to many Anabaptists. I even think, as was the case in OT times, that God could use believers the same today to work out His purposes.
When it comes to killing, we can be guilty of murder, adultery and other sins in our hearts as far as Jesus teachings. There is none righteous, no not one. I am saved not by my own righteousness but by the blood of Jesus.
God knows the heart of each person and He will be the final judge. But that doesn't mean I will follow any teacher when their lives do not reflect what they teach or their teachings go beyond my spiritual leading by the Spirit.
Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:10 pmI doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation.
Interesting thought. Do I understand your thought correctly in that you feel it was probably permissible for the aforementioned folks to engage in said killing because the view which they held of God (and by extension, the teachings of Jesus) was one where He allowed them to kill to restrain evil in the world? Essentially "just war" theology?
Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:10 pmI doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation.
Interesting thought. Do I understand your thought correctly in that you feel it was probably permissible for the aforementioned folks to engage in said killing because the view which they held of God (and by extension, the teachings of Jesus) was one where He allowed them to kill to restrain evil in the world? Essentially "just war" theology?
The explanation I heard most often was that killing done under the direction of military superiors was not the individual killing someone, but the nation. That essentially side-steps the whole "just war" controversy or question.
I believe that some Christians went to war and perhaps killed other Christians because they believed God was using them in His ways of dealing with evil. They have a different understanding of God using them in this way than those who do not go to war and kill. More of an Old Testament understanding of how God worked.
Will God not save them due to their understanding ? I believe God is savings most of us despite many of our false understandings of the scriptures.
There are many verses such as Romans 10:9-10 that indicate what is bottom line required fot salvation. And Paul writes in 1 Cor 15:3-4 what is of first importance to being saved. Some Christians seem to believe they can make a list beyond even what scripture literally says to who is and who is not saved. It would appear that Jesus shocked those at judgment day who thought they were saved and He said He never knew them.
So, I think we should be careful about our judging who is and who is not saved. I do believe Rev 7:9, this 'little flock' spoken elsewhere in scripture, is a number no man can count dressed in white robes. I believe scripture says we should focus mostly on our own state of salvation and that we can know in our hearts now if we are truy saved.
What did Jesus mean when he said "You will know them by their fruits."?
I doubt that believers in Christ who participated in the world wars and killed other humans have forfeited their salvation. And I think this is the same belief of many Anabaptists that knew believers who resisted evil by participating in wars. At least this is my experience talking to many Anabaptists. I even think, as was the case in OT times, that God could use believers the same today to work out His purposes.
When it comes to killing, we can be guilty of murder, adultery and other sins in our hearts as far as Jesus teachings. There is none righteous, no not one. I am saved not by my own righteousness but by the blood of Jesus.
God knows the heart of each person and He will be the final judge. But that doesn't mean I will follow any teacher when their lives do not reflect what they teach or their teachings go beyond my spiritual leading by the Spirit.
I was particularly wondering what you believed Jesus meant by that statement, since you seem to believe that it is never appropriate to believe that those who live in direct disobedience to God are headed for judgement.