Doctrine of Salvation?

[Sudsy]

The responses so far have largely been that of Evangelical Protestantism, though the question itself obviously suggests a Theology that is not necessarily related to the word “salvation” (sozo) as was used by Jesus and his witnesses.

You obviously mean how one obtains eternal life after death.

Yes, I assume these are the same. I assumed that "salvation" means saving the soul from hell for Christians.

I also look forward to hearing your understanding of salvation.

As a non-Christian who doesn't believe in heaven and hell, my answer will be very different. I view salvation as evolutionary salvation which means saving my genes and preventing them from going extinct. The Old Testament is the best guide for this as it makes clear with its emphasis on one's descendants.

But I don't think the definition of salvation is the important part. The important part is whether or not salvation is assured. Someone who feels that their salvation is assured, however salvation is defined, lacks any motive to study and seek truth. I discussed this in my post on Christianity that I made years ago.

The reason that I am bringing this up now is because I visited Colonia Vianna in north Mexico last weekend and attended a Church of God church service there and it felt odd to me. The extreme confidence that I felt at that service makes me think that they may believe in assured salvation which I would find unacceptable. Some people that I know have already moved to Colonia Vianna (fleeing the expected tyranny coming to America) and I asked them to talk to people at that church and find out. Of course there are plenty of Mennonite churches in the area that could work as an alternative. Based on Josh's answer it seems that Mennonite views vary but conservative Mennonites seem not to believe in assured salvation, so they would be fine. And this is the sense that I got from the conservative Mennonite churches that I visited in America.

Referring to the underlined. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

Many of us that believe in being assured we are saved (we have eternal life by putting our faith and trust in what Jesus did for us to save us from the penalty, power and someday very presence of sin) do so because our spirit bears witness with the Holy Spirit that we are a child of God. Romans 8. We don't live in fear of not being saved because we are experiencing the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives and He motivates us to study and seek more of the truths of God.

It isn't a situation where we just believe something in our heads, as scripture says satan believes to that point and trembles, but rather where our belief creates new desires in us to know more about God and serve Him. Those who profess to be Christians because perhaps they walked a church aisle and said a 'sinner's prayer' and yet by their life it shows they have not made Him their Lord and Saviour are living under a false assurance of salvation. Some of these are highly religious people (even in the most conservative churches) and they do not have a personal walk with God being lead by the Holy Spirit.

It comes down to what it means to 'believe in Christ'. If that belief is not a radical change to seek after and serve the Lord, then it is not being 'born again'. When we really 'believe' scripture says our spiritual eyes are opened from a blind state and salvation becomes a brand new way of life with a new desire to pursue it. Jesus calls it an abundant life. Something one cannot experience in this world. Unspeakable joy. Peace beyond our understanding. Overcoming anxiousness about this world. Unnatural Christ like love for others. And many other things. You may not see this in every believer as they remain in a baby Christian state or they really are not true born again believers. They are still unsaved.

Would be glad to chat more on this as you are missing out on way of life that not only is great now but ends in eternal life with God as He promises when we die. He offers this as a gift. Nothing you can do to earn it. But it must be received to take affect.

[Josh]

As a non-Christian who doesn't believe in heaven and hell, my answer will be very different. I view salvation as evolutionary salvation which means saving my genes and preventing them from going extinct. The Old Testament is the best guide for this as it makes clear with its emphasis on one's descendants.

Conservative and Old Order Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites believe in heaven and hell, but also believe that preserving their way of life and passing it down to their children is of the utmost importance. They would cite the same Old Testament verses you are probably thinking of, such as "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it", and that a righteous life is a blessing bestowed upon one's "children's children".

But I don't think the definition of salvation is the important part. The important part is whether or not salvation is assured. Someone who feels that their salvation is assured, however salvation is defined, lacks any motive to study and seek truth. I discussed this in my post on Christianity that I made years ago.

Old Order Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites do not claim to believe in "assurance" at all, but rather believe in a "hope" of salvation. All Mennonites believe one can lose their salvation if one falls into sin. It's basically semantics.

Less-conservative Mennonites often think that Old Order Mennonites/Amish/Hutterites are "not saved" because they will not express they are "assured" they saved. In turn, Old Orders look at liberal Mennonites and say, "Look at their children. They are all losing their way."

The reason that I am bringing this up now is because I visited Colonia Vianna in north Mexico last weekend and attended a Church of God church service there and it felt odd to me. The extreme confidence that I felt at that service makes me think that they may believe in assured salvation which I would find unacceptable. Some people that I know have already moved to Colonia Vianna (fleeing the expected tyranny coming to America) and I asked them to talk to people at that church and find out. Of course there are plenty of Mennonite churches in the area that could work as an alternative. Based on Josh's answer it seems that Mennonite views vary but conservative Mennonites seem not to believe in assured salvation, so they would be fine. And this is the sense that I got from the conservative Mennonite churches that I visited in America.

More-conservative Mennonite churches, and particularly Old Colonist Mennonites (which have quite a few numbers in Mexico) and Old Order Mennonites would align fairly closely with what you are looking for. I think you will find a bit of a difference, though, in that they do believe very much in heaven and hell, and they also believe in salvation through Jesus and baptism.

[Franklin]

The important part is whether or not salvation is assured. Someone who feels that their salvation is assured, however salvation is defined, lacks any motive to study and seek truth.

Referring to the underlined. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

I meant the important part FOR ME. I understand that this isn't the Christian view. My view, and I think the Old Testament view, is works focused. The behavior of a Christian, a Muslim, or someone interested in long term evolutionary success will be roughly the same if they sincerely seek the truth to determine which behavior is best. But a Christian who feels that heaven is guaranteed just by their faith, as Charles Finney advocated, will not study the Bible or any other useful ethical sources. This kind of thing is common among modern Protestants. Hopefully this explains why I am focused on assurance of salvation.

[Josh]

But a Christian who feels that heaven is guaranteed just by their faith, as Charles Finney advocated, will not study the Bible or any other useful ethical source. This kind of thing is common among modern Protestants. Hopefully this explains why I am focused on assurance of salvation.

I actually agree with your statement here, and an excellent example is what happened to Charles Finney’s university: it hosts a campus-wide orgy for the freshman class, alongside heavily promoting homosexual behaviour.

Those who do such things are obviously not “saved” in any sense of the word.

[Franklin]

Conservative and Old Order Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites believe in heaven and hell, but also believe that preserving their way of life and passing it down to their children is of the utmost importance. They would cite the same Old Testament verses you are probably thinking of, such as "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it", and that a righteous life is a blessing bestowed upon one's "children's children".

I recognize this. In spite of not being Christian or Muslim, I think I have much more in common with conservative Anabaptists and conservative Muslims than I do with other people.

Old Order Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites do not claim to believe in "assurance" at all, but rather believe in a "hope" of salvation. All Mennonites believe one can lose their salvation if one falls into sin. It's basically semantics.

Less-conservative Mennonites often think that Old Order Mennonites/Amish/Hutterites are "not saved" because they will not express they are "assured" they saved. In turn, Old Orders look at liberal Mennonites and say, "Look at their children. They are all losing their way."

Do you know what the view of groups like the Eastern Pennsylvania churches or the Nationwide churches would be? Maybe I should try to contact them and ask.

More-conservative Mennonite churches, and particularly Old Colonist Mennonites (which have quite a few numbers in Mexico) and Old Order Mennonites would align fairly closely with what you are looking for. I think you will find a bit of a difference, though, in that they do believe very much in heaven and hell, and they also believe in salvation through Jesus and baptism.

I think I would find a bit of a difference with almost all other people, and I accept this. Whether I can get a along with a group of people, I can only judge by visiting them. I like the Eastern Pennsylvania and Nationwide churches but these are in America and now I would like to move to Mexico. So I will try to find something similar there.

[Wayne in Maine]

But a Christian who feels that heaven is guaranteed just by their faith, as Charles Finney advocated, will not study the Bible or any other useful ethical source. This kind of thing is common among modern Protestants. Hopefully this explains why I am focused on assurance of salvation.

This is a great observation. It was one of he points of conflict between the early Anabaptists and the Protestant reformers. And it is very strange to me that so many Ethnic Mennonites hav come to side with the reformers as if “Justification by Faith Alone was actually biblical.

I think the real resolution to this “assurance” question for the authentic Anabaptist is in the concept of the tangible presence of the Kingdom of God here and now (not merely a “heaven” deferred to the afterlife) and the concept of Gelassenheit, where total submission to God results in total peace and true sense that God controls your life and destiny.

[Sudsy]

The important part is whether or not salvation is assured. Someone who feels that their salvation is assured, however salvation is defined, lacks any motive to study and seek truth.

Referring to the underlined. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

I meant the important part FOR ME. I understand that this isn't the Christian view. My view, and I think the Old Testament view, is works focused. The behavior of a Christian, a Muslim, or someone interested in long term evolutionary success will be roughly the same if they sincerely seek the truth to determine which behavior is best. But a Christian who feels that heaven is guaranteed just by their faith, as Charles Finney advocated, will not study the Bible or any other useful ethical sources. This kind of thing is common among modern Protestants. Hopefully this explains why I am focused on assurance of salvation.

A Christian who 'feels that heaven is guaranteed just by their faith' and 'will not study the Bible' has a wrong understanding of faith. I agree with Finney that our basis in both becoming a Christian and living a Christian life is faith. Not faith and works but rather a faith that works. True saving faith produces good works. Jews asked Jesus what they needed to do to work the works of God. Jesus replied - "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Here is a sermon of Finney's of what he did believe regarding faith - https://www.gospeltruth.net/1839OE/390116_faith.htm

[Josh]

Conservative and Old Order Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites believe in heaven and hell, but also believe that preserving their way of life and passing it down to their children is of the utmost importance. They would cite the same Old Testament verses you are probably thinking of, such as "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it", and that a righteous life is a blessing bestowed upon one's "children's children".

I recognize this. In spite of not being Christian or Muslim, I think I have much more in common with conservative Anabaptists and conservative Muslims than I do with other people.

Old Order Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites do not claim to believe in "assurance" at all, but rather believe in a "hope" of salvation. All Mennonites believe one can lose their salvation if one falls into sin. It's basically semantics.

Less-conservative Mennonites often think that Old Order Mennonites/Amish/Hutterites are "not saved" because they will not express they are "assured" they saved. In turn, Old Orders look at liberal Mennonites and say, "Look at their children. They are all losing their way."

Do you know what the view of groups like the Eastern Pennsylvania churches or the Nationwide churches would be? Maybe I should try to contact them and ask.

More-conservative Mennonite churches, and particularly Old Colonist Mennonites (which have quite a few numbers in Mexico) and Old Order Mennonites would align fairly closely with what you are looking for. I think you will find a bit of a difference, though, in that they do believe very much in heaven and hell, and they also believe in salvation through Jesus and baptism.

I think I would find a bit of a difference with almost all other people, and I accept this. Whether I can get a along with a group of people, I can only judge by visiting them. I like the Eastern Pennsylvania and Nationwide churches but these are in America and now I would like to move to Mexico. So I will try to find something similar there.

On paper, Nationwides and Easterns claim to believe in “assurance of salvation”. In actual practice, they have been described as a people who fear they lose their salvation 5 or 10 times a day. They are very focused on making sure to live out specific practices lest they forfeit their salvation.

Interestingly I have found I have a lot in common with moderately conservative Muslims as well.

[Wade]

Conservative and Old Order Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites believe in heaven and hell, but also believe that preserving their way of life and passing it down to their children is of the utmost importance. They would cite the same Old Testament verses you are probably thinking of, such as "train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it", and that a righteous life is a blessing bestowed upon one's "children's children".

I recognize this. In spite of not being Christian or Muslim, I think I have much more in common with conservative Anabaptists and conservative Muslims than I do with other people.

Old Order Amish/Mennonites/Hutterites do not claim to believe in "assurance" at all, but rather believe in a "hope" of salvation. All Mennonites believe one can lose their salvation if one falls into sin. It's basically semantics.

Less-conservative Mennonites often think that Old Order Mennonites/Amish/Hutterites are "not saved" because they will not express they are "assured" they saved. In turn, Old Orders look at liberal Mennonites and say, "Look at their children. They are all losing their way."

Do you know what the view of groups like the Eastern Pennsylvania churches or the Nationwide churches would be? Maybe I should try to contact them and ask.

More-conservative Mennonite churches, and particularly Old Colonist Mennonites (which have quite a few numbers in Mexico) and Old Order Mennonites would align fairly closely with what you are looking for. I think you will find a bit of a difference, though, in that they do believe very much in heaven and hell, and they also believe in salvation through Jesus and baptism.

I think I would find a bit of a difference with almost all other people, and I accept this. Whether I can get a along with a group of people, I can only judge by visiting them. I like the Eastern Pennsylvania and Nationwide churches but these are in America and now I would like to move to Mexico. So I will try to find something similar there.

On paper, Nationwides and Easterns claim to believe in “assurance of salvation”. In actual practice, they have been described as a people who fear they lose their salvation 5 or 10 times a day. They are very focused on making sure to live out specific practices lest they forfeit their salvation.

Interestingly I have found I have a lot in common with moderately conservative Muslims as well.

This is not true about any Nationwide people I know. Most of them aren't so focused on self that personal salvation is looked at very often except in regards to having our own personal relationship with the Lord. The focus is toward being crucified to self in serving like and in Christ in something much bigger - the Kingdom of God.

[Josh]

Most Nationwide people believe, for example, that if you intentionally tell a lie, you instantly forfeit your salvation. (Holdemans tend to believe this too.) The same would go for excessively lustful thoughts, etc.

A person who struggles with doing the above would be constantly seeking repentance / help / forgiveness etc.