Kingdom Christian and Charity Movements

[ohio jones]

If I were editing for publication, which perhaps I should have done before posting here, I'd change that first point on the CM side to something along the lines of a traditional rural/small town lifestyle preference. The mention of rules was intended to be descriptive, not to indicate disdain.

I do think it's true that CM distinctives tend to be more practical (orthopraxy) than theological (orthodoxy), an emphasis that could also be contrasted with the conservative Evangelical worldview.

[Ken]

Venn I have a concept like this to explain, I find it helpful to do a diagram. Here's one I did a few months ago as a sidebar to a presentation at church:



It's not intended to be comprehensive of course, but to indicate some of the commonalities and distinctives.

Interesting. Is it intentional that the characteristics or traits exclusive to conservative Mennonites are basically non-religious customs and traditions? Quilting??? While the similarities are largely theological?

I would object to that characterizing. There are theological differences and presenting the Mennonites as a rule bound group that quilts... is fairly bias. The mutual aid would be a theological point which the early church also taught but seemed to not be practiced among some of the kingdom Christians. Not accepting governmental money in terms of social security, health insurance are things the Kingdom Christians don't care about. There is a strong social media push coming out of FOTW for instance that you would never see out of a Conservative Mennonite church. Internet is encouraged as necessary, Homeschooling is pushed by the Kingdom movement while church schools are very common among the CM's. These things come out of priorities in life. It doesn't seem like there is any concern about higher education yet history has shown this to be risky. My point is that there is considerable difference that comes from our theological points. Sure its not comprehensive but you could have reduced your sarcasm meter by a few points or your disdain for traditional groups.

I didn't make the Venn diagram that put quilting, gardening, and fishing on the top of the list as traits unique to Conservative Mennonites to distinguish them from Kingdom Christians.

I'm not sure what music refers to here. Is that instrumental music? Secular music? Use of music in church? That seems more like part of "rules" although I'm not sure what that refers to other than Conservative Mennonites being more rule-bound (black cars, technology, dress codes, etc.)

Non-religious is perhaps the wrong word. But I see Conservative Mennonites being distinguished here more on issues related to traditions and customs as opposed to explicit doctrine or beliefs. Mutual Aid aside, the rest of this list is things that Mennonites do, and not things they believe. I don't think Mennonites believe in black cars or cape dresses. Those are customs or traditions or rules that they follow as part of a group. But they do believe in believers baptism and non-violence and the inerrancy of the Bible.

[Ken]

If I were editing for publication, which perhaps I should have done before posting here, I'd change that first point on the CM side to something along the lines of a traditional rural/small town lifestyle preference. The mention of rules was intended to be descriptive, not to indicate disdain.

I do think it's true that CM distinctives tend to be more practical (orthopraxy) than theological (orthodoxy), an emphasis that could also be contrasted with the conservative Evangelical worldview.

I was in-artful in my wording. But I was trying to get at the difference between beliefs and doctrines as opposed to lifestyle preferences or traditions and customs.

[Soloist]

I didn't make the Venn diagram that put quilting, gardening, and fishing on the top of the list as traits unique to Conservative Mennonites to distinguish them from Kingdom Christians.

I'm not sure what music refers to here. Is that instrumental music? Secular music? Use of music in church? That seems more like part of "rules" although I'm not sure what that refers to other than Conservative Mennonites being more rule-bound (black cars, technology, dress codes, etc.)

Non-religious is perhaps the wrong word. But I see Conservative Mennonites being distinguished here more on issues related to traditions and customs as opposed to explicit doctrine or beliefs. Mutual Aid aside, the rest of this list is things that Mennonites do, and not things they believe. I don't think Mennonites believe in black cars or cape dresses. Those are customs or traditions or rules that they follow as part of a group. But they do believe in believers baptism and non-violence and the inerrancy of the Bible.

I know, I wasn't responding directly to you.
It tends that the Kingdom Christians I know are very musically talented too... so I'm assuming its referring to not using instruments.
Well, they believe in modesty, they just have a specific application which is a definite difference between the two. Specifics of rules. A Kingdom church might say "modest dress" and maybe give examples, a CM church would give specific guidance. There are pros and cons to this approach but that's a pretty key difference.

[Ken]

I didn't make the Venn diagram that put quilting, gardening, and fishing on the top of the list as traits unique to Conservative Mennonites to distinguish them from Kingdom Christians.

I'm not sure what music refers to here. Is that instrumental music? Secular music? Use of music in church? That seems more like part of "rules" although I'm not sure what that refers to other than Conservative Mennonites being more rule-bound (black cars, technology, dress codes, etc.)

Non-religious is perhaps the wrong word. But I see Conservative Mennonites being distinguished here more on issues related to traditions and customs as opposed to explicit doctrine or beliefs. Mutual Aid aside, the rest of this list is things that Mennonites do, and not things they believe. I don't think Mennonites believe in black cars or cape dresses. Those are customs or traditions or rules that they follow as part of a group. But they do believe in believers baptism and non-violence and the inerrancy of the Bible.

I know, I wasn't responding directly to you.
It tends that the Kingdom Christians I know are very musically talented too... so I'm assuming its referring to not using instruments.
Well, they believe in modesty, they just have a specific application which is a definite difference between the two. Specifics of rules. A Kingdom church might say "modest dress" and maybe give examples, a CM church would give specific guidance. There are pros and cons to this approach but that's a pretty key difference.

And I'm not trying to be disdainful here. I just find it interesting that when defining Conservative Mennonites the first things that come to mind are outward lifestyle choices and preferences rather than actual beliefs. Most churches everywhere believe in modest dress. That isn't unique to Conservative Mennonites. My Catholic mother-in-law is just as sharp-eyed and sharp-tongued and disapproving about inappropriate and immodest dress. What distinguishes her from a Conservative Mennonite woman isn't the belief in modesty, but just the style preferences.

[Valerie]

I didn't make the Venn diagram that put quilting, gardening, and fishing on the top of the list as traits unique to Conservative Mennonites to distinguish them from Kingdom Christians.

I'm not sure what music refers to here. Is that instrumental music? Secular music? Use of music in church? That seems more like part of "rules" although I'm not sure what that refers to other than Conservative Mennonites being more rule-bound (black cars, technology, dress codes, etc.)

Non-religious is perhaps the wrong word. But I see Conservative Mennonites being distinguished here more on issues related to traditions and customs as opposed to explicit doctrine or beliefs. Mutual Aid aside, the rest of this list is things that Mennonites do, and not things they believe. I don't think Mennonites believe in black cars or cape dresses. Those are customs or traditions or rules that they follow as part of a group. But they do believe in believers baptism and non-violence and the inerrancy of the Bible.

I know, I wasn't responding directly to you.
It tends that the Kingdom Christians I know are very musically talented too... so I'm assuming its referring to not using instruments.
Well, they believe in modesty, they just have a specific application which is a definite difference between the two. Specifics of rules. A Kingdom church might say "modest dress" and maybe give examples, a CM church would give specific guidance. There are pros and cons to this approach but that's a pretty key difference.

And I'm not trying to be disdainful here. I just find it interesting that when defining Conservative Mennonites the first things that come to mind are outward lifestyle choices and preferences rather than actual beliefs. Most churches everywhere believe in modest dress. That isn't unique to Conservative Mennonites. My Catholic mother-in-law is just as sharp-eyed and sharp-tongued and disapproving about inappropriate and immodest dress. What distinguishes her from a Conservative Mennonite woman isn't the belief in modesty, but just the style preferences.

I think that just about every church we've visited on the last few decades, we saw a trend towards immodesty. It was like that in the Jesus movement starting in late 60's early 70s where focus on outward was badiy looked down on so modesty wasn't taught at all, or for the most part, from that point on. It probably was still true in old denominations. But present the immodesty had been a big turn off to us because we feel like it's being ignored, & it is Scriptural, and with good reason. Any hint of addressing outward is considered legalistic. Nice to hear Catholics still teach/practice modesty, at least in Church. Church attire has become very irreverent IMO.

[Ernie]

I would object to that characterizing. There are theological differences and presenting the Mennonites as a rule bound group that quilts... is fairly bias. The mutual aid would be a theological point which the early church also taught but seemed to not be practiced among some of the kingdom Christians. Not accepting governmental money in terms of social security, health insurance are things the Kingdom Christians don't care about. There is a strong social media push coming out of FOTW for instance that you would never see out of a Conservative Mennonite church. Internet is encouraged as necessary, Homeschooling is pushed by the Kingdom movement while church schools are very common among the CM's. These things come out of priorities in life. It doesn't seem like there is any concern about higher education yet history has shown this to be risky. My point is that there is considerable difference that comes from our theological points.

Soloist, I think your list for CMs much better parallels the list OHIO did for kingdom Christians. Kingdom Christians have their list of cultural things that parallel the quilts, fishing, and music list. JoshR could probably help us make that list.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I would object to that characterizing. There are theological differences and presenting the Mennonites as a rule bound group that quilts... is fairly bias. The mutual aid would be a theological point which the early church also taught but seemed to not be practiced among some of the kingdom Christians. Not accepting governmental money in terms of social security, health insurance are things the Kingdom Christians don't care about. There is a strong social media push coming out of FOTW for instance that you would never see out of a Conservative Mennonite church. Internet is encouraged as necessary, Homeschooling is pushed by the Kingdom movement while church schools are very common among the CM's. These things come out of priorities in life. It doesn't seem like there is any concern about higher education yet history has shown this to be risky. My point is that there is considerable difference that comes from our theological points.

Soloist, I think your list for CMs much better parallels the list OHIO did for kingdom Christians. Kingdom Christians have their list of cultural things that parallel the quilts, fishing, and music list. JoshR could probably help us make that list.

Full Quiver, married women not working outside the home, congregate living strongly encouraged without being common purse, much more willing to participate in aggressive intellectual discourse. That is what I have picked up. Some of these appear in some Mennonite circles as well, but more often than not "trends" rather than expectations.

Doctrinally, they are more Stone-Campbell than Mennonite. They seem to think original language is some sort of "secret" to understanding the Bible, few other churches would have Greek classes. Their inter church relations seem to fit more the Stone-Campbell mold rather then the (old) Mennonite mold.

Frankly, I am in general a bit suspicious of "new" movements with little history. I have seen too many disasters in my many years. Helped pick up the pieces from at lease one.

J.M.

[ohio jones]

It tends that the Kingdom Christians I know are very musically talented too... so I'm assuming its referring to not using instruments.

My point in referencing music is that CMs tend to have, and make, lots of it. Music education in church and school, four part harmony, Bible School/Institute choruses, congregational hymn sings, music camps, family singing groups, touring choirs, the list could go on. With or without instruments, though more without.

I haven't seen that level of emphasis in the KCs. Sure they enjoy music (there's a DKCMusic group on FB after all), but my impression (which could very well be skewed) is that there's more listening than corporate music-making. I wonder how much of that is related to their embrace of the Regulative Principle.

[JoshScott]

Late comment here on this one...

We attended a Charity-type church for about 1 1/2 years when it was just my wife and I. We were inspired by Brother Denny's preaching and what seemed to be an Anabaptist-type church that also seemed to be more aggressively evangelistic which was something we were looking for at the time. Charity looked like a good combination of separation from the world and evangelism to the world, those two doctrines that we Christians seem to have a hard time holding in tension, historically.. and it is that I suppose, in many ways.

When asked why we didn't stay, well there were a number of reasons. I always tell people that there is an empty spot on the CD shelf there next to "The Godly Home" series. That is where I wish we would have gotten a "Godly Church" series. The original Charity statement of faith is weak on that. We feel that the the NT church is intended by God to be more than a fellowship of sovereign homes. That was why we couldn't stay. Doctrine of the church was lacking. And that was a similar story in many fellowships that sprung up. They were so radically congregational that as soon as folks crossed each other on an issue, there would be division. The longer-lasting groups have had to supply that doctrine and structure in order to function with longevity.

Mose Stoltzfus preached a wonderful message (series?) called "The Value of the Church." We loved that. We shared it with our group we were in on a Wednesday evening one time and .. well, it went over like a lead balloon.. put it that way.

That was 13 years ago and that group is in the process of disbanding now, by the way.