Church leadership: term limits

[Josh]

I see the concern here, Josh, but doesn't your prediction sort of presuppose that both the leaders and the majority of the congregation are carnal?

It does—because we are both carnal!

[jahertz]

I see the concern here, Josh, but doesn't your prediction sort of presuppose that both the leaders and the majority of the congregation are carnal?

It does—because we are both carnal!

Well... maybe we're using the word carnal differently. I'm inclined to think that if a congregation and its leadership are, on the whole, carnal, the details of its leadership arrangement are largely moot.

I'm intrigued by the original question. My current understanding of New Testament church authority, in very simplified form, is that authority flows from Christ, through the congregation, to the leaders. Term limits would certainly seem to reinforce the leaders' accountability to the rest of the brotherhood, but I can see how they might also incentivize pandering and political maneuvering.

In Plain churches, which leadership dysfunction is more common: spineless man-pleasing and "going along to get along," or authoritarian rule that overrides the will of God as discerned in the congregation? I don't have enough data to answer, though I have certain suspicions. One's answer to that question would likely predict one's friendliness toward measures that strengthen leaders' accountability to the congregation, like term limits.

[gcdonner]

Just wondering out loud here. Is the ordination of NT leaders somehow connected to the OT appointment of priests? Of course under the OC, all the priests came from one "family", though through different branches of said family and their appointment was for life. In the NT, it is similar except that the NT family is the source of leadership, which is to be originated in the Spirit. I wonder in what way, and to what extent, the NT church was influenced by the OC priesthood example? Or are we really considering our NT leaders in the light of OC prophets?
I know that in conservative circles where the ordination is done by the lot, the concept is that the lot is determined by the Holy Spirit, just as is assumed in the appointment of Matthias, yet we also see that Paul appointed on his own, and instructed Titus to appoint and ordain on his own.
Where most congregations don't recognize the position of apostle anymore, is it assumed that the congregation now has the authority that was previously given to the apostles???
While there are certainly benefits to term limits, I would find it difficult to find NT precedence for it.

[Gene]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

[mike]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

Maybe the topic should be Church leadership: terms

[Neto]

Just wondering out loud here. Is the ordination of NT leaders somehow connected to the OT appointment of priests?
....

Isn't there something in the Law about a priest retiring at a certain age? (I'm thinking that it is 50.)

[gcdonner]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

I don't think the assumption is whether or not they are immune to error, but what does the Bible say about "term limits"? There is always accountability, whether or not you have term limits, if there is a proper relationship in the Body.

[gcdonner]

Just wondering out loud here. Is the ordination of NT leaders somehow connected to the OT appointment of priests?
....

Isn't there something in the Law about a priest retiring at a certain age? (I'm thinking that it is 50.)

Num 8:24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:
25 And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more:
26 But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service. Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.

So how to you interpret the "ministry" after the age of 50?

[Gene]

Terms limits as understood in the political system, that is, an absolute definite end to serving in a particular capacity, probably not. Endless assignment without congregational evaluation is not good either. Ordination does not impart perfection. Accountability, to actually mean anything must carry the very real possibility of losing one's position. It is essential to have forms of confidentially assessing the thoughts and seeking the guidance of the congregants on the ministry of any individual. For SS teachers and every other non ordained position this is accomplished through elections following specified terms of service. Why would we think ordained persons are immune to error and thus need no accountability?

I don't think the assumption is whether or not they are immune to error, but what does the Bible say about "term limits"? There is always accountability, whether or not you have term limits, if there is a proper relationship in the Body.

The last phrase of the honorable Mr. Donner's comment contains an immense variable. One nearly insurmountable in practicality. Does one assume that leadership has the direction of God in a way lay people do not, as some maintain? if so, complaints or concerns voiced by the great unwashed are easily dismissed as the caterwauling of the indicted, as it were. Or simply a jockeying for political, in an ecclesiastical context, power. Or dismissed as congregationalism, the term being used as a pejorative, as democracy for the megalomaniac always represents a threat. There is probably not a congregation anywhere with a "proper relationship" especially so if such conditions depend upon the integrity of the humanity of which such an idyllic gathering consists. Dependence upon frail personalities to achieve accountability will fail in the long term. We live in a fallen world.

[gcdonner]

The last phrase of the honorable Mr. Donner's comment contains an immense variable. One nearly insurmountable in practicality. Does one assume that leadership has the direction of God in a way lay people do not, as some maintain? if so, complaints or concerns voiced by the great unwashed are easily dismissed as the caterwauling of the indicted, as it were. Or simply a jockeying for political, in an ecclesiastical context, power. Or dismissed as congregationalism, the term being used as a pejorative, as democracy for the megalomaniac always represents a threat. There is probably not a congregation anywhere with a "proper relationship" especially so if such conditions depend upon the integrity of the humanity of which such an idyllic gathering consists. Dependence upon frail personalities to achieve accountability will fail in the long term. We live in a fallen world.

But you still beg the question, "Where in scripture do you find term limits?" No doubt we are all fallen, though redeemed individuals, some more sanctified than others, but how has God determined to deal with us within the context of the Body of Christ and how does the NT reveal that determination?
Sounds like you have had a really bad experience in the past (or present) with abusive leadership. I too have experienced it within Anabaptist churches, and it was one of the reasons that I moved on. When the pastor/bishop/apostle or whatever you choose to call them no longer listens to the brotherhood conscience, then we ARE in trouble. I have seen the devastation of some men becoming "gods" in their own minds, and forgetting the good of the flock for the benefit of their own ego/agenda. I have stood up to some of those despots and finally decided to let history run it's course. Unfortunately, the end of one of those men was apostasy and degeneracy. I was justified in my reaction to such a person, but had wished for a better end.
I believe that it was God who brought his "term" to it's limits and deposed him, not a man or congregation.