What Constitutes Moderate Anabaptism?

[silentreader]

Followers are lead into apostasy by their leaders, and that apostasy spreads to generations following.

Is this expressing your opinion that moderate Anabaptists are apostates?

Moderate (adjective): 4. Not extreme in opinion; as a moderate Calvinist or Lutheran.

5. Placed between extremes; holding the mean or middle place; as reformation of a moderate kind.

6. Temperate; not extreme, violent or rigorous; as moderate weather; a moderate winter; moderate heat; a moderate breeze of wind.

How close do the above definitions come to Revelations 3:15:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Oh, I apologize, I forgot; wonder how soon (and how many) posters will come forward with perversion versions and commentaries to prove that the original language and interpretation of those verses mean something entirely different. And if not, perhaps someone else can be sure to remind us the traditional Mennonite interpretation of eschatology is Ammilennialism and if not, the Preterists can help out.

Since my Uncle, who usually attends a CMC (London Christian Fellowship) Church in Ohio, but has been visiting us this weekend, has been able to put a nice, hot (NOT lukewarm ) cup of coffee in my hand this morning, I’m no longer feeling as ultra-pious as when I first made the post. Seriously though, I love and appreciate his inter-faith prison ministry and our family has been blessed by his visit. Personally, I don’t believe moderate is synonymous with apostate as was used in this thread, but Beeply will have to come forward to answer the question. As far as nefarious ways and means to explain away Scripture; that’s a different story, but I obviously haven’t had enough coffee yet!

Curious, would you also equate that with this;

Philippians 4:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

or perhaps this...

Galatians 5:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[DrWojo]

Is this expressing your opinion that moderate Anabaptists are apostates?

Moderate (adjective): 4. Not extreme in opinion; as a moderate Calvinist or Lutheran.

5. Placed between extremes; holding the mean or middle place; as reformation of a moderate kind.

6. Temperate; not extreme, violent or rigorous; as moderate weather; a moderate winter; moderate heat; a moderate breeze of wind.

How close do the above definitions come to Revelations 3:15:

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Oh, I apologize, I forgot; wonder how soon (and how many) posters will come forward with perversion versions and commentaries to prove that the original language and interpretation of those verses mean something entirely different. And if not, perhaps someone else can be sure to remind us the traditional Mennonite interpretation of eschatology is Ammilennialism and if not, the Preterists can help out.

Since my Uncle, who usually attends a CMC (London Christian Fellowship) Church in Ohio, but has been visiting us this weekend, has been able to put a nice, hot (NOT lukewarm ) cup of coffee in my hand this morning, I’m no longer feeling as ultra-pious as when I first made the post. Seriously though, I love and appreciate his inter-faith prison ministry and our family has been blessed by his visit. Personally, I don’t believe moderate is synonymous with apostate as was used in this thread, but Beeply will have to come forward to answer the question. As far as nefarious ways and means to explain away Scripture; that’s a different story, but I obviously haven’t had enough coffee yet!

Curious, would you also equate that with this;

Philippians 4:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

or perhaps this...

Galatians 5:22-23 King James Version (KJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

I appreciate and like your train of thought.

If you approach the moderate = apostate question from the premise of a church’s standards, IMHO the focus is the authority of that church with an earthly man (Bishops for Mennonites; Pope &/or Priest for Catholics — small difference?) as representative calling the shots. Then it’s all about how well members match up with a particular group’s creeds on a continuum from liberal to conservative.

On the other hand, if the ‘member’ is first and foremost a servant of a Sovereign, Heavenly Master, if “the Lord is at hand,” as long as that focus on pleasing his Lord and Master is there, ‘moderate’ probably has more to do with living carefully and redemptively, such a focus, I believe, will spare the Name of Christ far more reproach than when it’s all about externals and man’s boasting, prideful free will.

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

[Robert]

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

But I am so beautiful when I am ruffled.

[DrWojo]

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

But I am so beautiful when I am ruffled.

now you’re making me blush
Hope this doesn’t become like when I attended an Eastern Christian Day School. There was a certain girl that blushed easily. I think a number of us tried often to get her to blush because we never tired of seeing her face turn red.

[silentreader]

Is this expressing your opinion that moderate Anabaptists are apostates?

Moderate (adjective): 4. Not extreme in opinion; as a moderate Calvinist or Lutheran.

5. Placed between extremes; holding the mean or middle place; as reformation of a moderate kind.

6. Temperate; not extreme, violent or rigorous; as moderate weather; a moderate winter; moderate heat; a moderate breeze of wind.

How close do the above definitions come to Revelations 3:15:

Curious, would you also equate that with this;


or perhaps this...

I appreciate and like your train of thought.

If you approach the moderate = apostate question from the premise of a church’s standards, IMHO the focus is the authority of that church with an earthly man (Bishops for Mennonites; Pope &/or Priest for Catholics — small difference?) as representative calling the shots. Then it’s all about how well members match up with a particular group’s creeds on a continuum from liberal to conservative.

On the other hand, if the ‘member’ is first and foremost a servant of a Sovereign, Heavenly Master, if “the Lord is at hand,” as long as that focus on pleasing his Lord and Master is there, ‘moderate’ probably has more to do with living carefully and redemptively, such a focus, I believe, will spare the Name of Christ far more reproach than when it’s all about externals and man’s boasting, prideful free will.

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

I think what you refer to as moderate = apostate in The Revelation refers to the presence or absence of good works which are generated because of being raised up to new life, not the superficial works generated by a preference of practice.
I am, however, not comfortable with using moderate as it is used in the Biblical sense as synonymous with lukewarm as used in The Revelation.
I would suggest, for instance, lukewarm = apathetic.
So perhaps to meet the criteria that you seem to want to explore, you should start a new thread, maybe -- "What Constitutes Apathetic Anabaptism?"
I think that would be more relevant, and probably worthy of exploration.

[DrWojo]

Is this expressing your opinion that moderate Anabaptists are apostates?

I appreciate and like your train of thought.

If you approach the moderate = apostate question from the premise of a church’s standards, IMHO the focus is the authority of that church with an earthly man (Bishops for Mennonites; Pope &/or Priest for Catholics — small difference?) as representative calling the shots. Then it’s all about how well members match up with a particular group’s creeds on a continuum from liberal to conservative.

On the other hand, if the ‘member’ is first and foremost a servant of a Sovereign, Heavenly Master, if “the Lord is at hand,” as long as that focus on pleasing his Lord and Master is there, ‘moderate’ probably has more to do with living carefully and redemptively, such a focus, I believe, will spare the Name of Christ far more reproach than when it’s all about externals and man’s boasting, prideful free will.

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

I think what you refer to as moderate = apostate in The Revelation refers to the presence or absence of good works which are generated because of being raised up to new life, not the superficial works generated by a preference of practice.
I am, however, not comfortable with using moderate as it is used in the Biblical sense as synonymous with lukewarm as used in The Revelation.
I would suggest, for instance, lukewarm = apathetic.
So perhaps to meet the criteria that you seem to want to explore, you should start a new thread, maybe -- "What Constitutes Apathetic Anabaptism?"
I think that would be more relevant, and probably worthy of exploration.

I doubt there’s enough coffee in the rainforest to give me enough courage to attempt that! Wouldn’t that be too judgmental, to decide where the line of apathy falls among the listed groups? Or should we vaguely profile &/or stereotype what Apathetic Anabaptists are like?

[silentreader]

I appreciate and like your train of thought.

If you approach the moderate = apostate question from the premise of a church’s standards, IMHO the focus is the authority of that church with an earthly man (Bishops for Mennonites; Pope &/or Priest for Catholics — small difference?) as representative calling the shots. Then it’s all about how well members match up with a particular group’s creeds on a continuum from liberal to conservative.

On the other hand, if the ‘member’ is first and foremost a servant of a Sovereign, Heavenly Master, if “the Lord is at hand,” as long as that focus on pleasing his Lord and Master is there, ‘moderate’ probably has more to do with living carefully and redemptively, such a focus, I believe, will spare the Name of Christ far more reproach than when it’s all about externals and man’s boasting, prideful free will.

I’m trying to express this sincerely and not in a way to ruffle feathers.

I think what you refer to as moderate = apostate in The Revelation refers to the presence or absence of good works which are generated because of being raised up to new life, not the superficial works generated by a preference of practice.
I am, however, not comfortable with using moderate as it is used in the Biblical sense as synonymous with lukewarm as used in The Revelation.
I would suggest, for instance, lukewarm = apathetic.
So perhaps to meet the criteria that you seem to want to explore, you should start a new thread, maybe -- "What Constitutes Apathetic Anabaptism?"
I think that would be more relevant, and probably worthy of exploration.

I doubt there’s enough coffee in the rainforest to give me enough courage to attempt that! Wouldn’t that be too judgmental, to decide where the line of apathy falls among the listed groups? Or should we vaguely profile &/or stereotype what Apathetic Anabaptists are like?

Aren't you and some others actually doing that now, in a round about way for what ever reason? Seems to me I have read quite a bit lately from various perspectives that, to me at least, seemed judgmental. Perhaps I don't understand "judgmental"? Perhaps the intent is exhortation, perhaps I have misunderstood?

[Beeply]

Followers are lead into apostasy by their leaders, and that apostasy spreads to generations following.

1Kings 14:15 For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water, and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers, and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger.
16 And he shall give Israel up because of the sins of Jeroboam, who did sin, and who made Israel to sin.[/u][/u]

huh?
i'm not sure how your statement, (which i can accept at face value) ties into this thread.
obviously i'm a bit dense.
can you please explain it for me?
thanks much
-jm

I just posted it for face value and not pointed at any church group or affiliation. It is however a warning to those Pastors that exist to facilitate a smooth transition to Protestantism

[Beeply]

Followers are lead into apostasy by their leaders, and that apostasy spreads to generations following.

Is this expressing your opinion that moderate Anabaptists are apostates?

No the quote was not aimed at any church group or affiliation. Just a general warning to Pastors.

[Gene]

Another way of phrasing the questions would be "Are you licentious (MCUSA) or legalistic (Old Order)?"

.

Really? "licentious" is the adjective you would use for MCUSA? "Tolerant" or "progressive" perhaps. Maybe "mainstream" or "worldly" But "licentious" a pretty judgemental term. Would you also apply it to every other mainstream protestant denomination?

If one moves on from the facetious nature of the comment to an apparent attempt to analyze the statement as a judgement of the apostasy of MCUSA, I think perhaps it is still accurate in significant degree. Progressive is an euphemism used when we wish to avoid using liberal in contexts where the label is seen as a pejorative. It does not carry with it the notion of actual progress toward the ostensible goal of the person or organization labeling itself as such. Therefore the creeping acceptance by MCUSA of gay marriage does not indicate movement toward more Christ likeness, what you would expect a Christian group to desire, but actually movement away from holiness.

Tolerance, properly means acceptance of things one truly objects to. I am not sure what the great mass of Mennonites truly object to, but trying to engage the Pink Menno crowd and their ilk in discussion, it appears what they truly object to is contrary or conservative opinion of which they are quite intolerant. Immorality, conventionally defined, not so much. That MCUSA gives convention space to these people says something.

But mostly the post was facetious. I am as cynical about CMC as any other group, but then I am not a Miller or Showalter nor do I live in Ohio, that Mennonite Mecca. I did marry a Miller, but one that owes more to an Amishman called Oregon Jake than to a Hotel Magnate from Grantsville. (I apologize to those for whom these names are so obscure as to be perfectly meaningless, a soggy word salad of sorts without any connection to anything remotely within your frame of reference. A certain architect with seemingly endless connections to CMC royalty can probably clear it up for you. )