Josh wrote:
It would be interesting if the main effect of Wycliffe’s PA Dutch translation was not to convert Amish to evangelicalism, but to JW.
I know Hank (Henry Hershberger, the translator who did the PA German translation) well, and I don't think his objective was to convert them to Evangelicalism. I guess I've never asked him what his motivation was, but I feel pretty confident that he would say it was to give his people the Word in their own language - the same reason he & his wife gave the NT to an aboriginal tribe in Australia.
The motivation of putting scriptural texts in the "mother languages" of various groups of people is to get them to start reading it a lot....
As a Bible translator myself, I respectfully disagree. Also, many Bible translation projects today are concentrating heavily on oral presentation methods, or even video (such as dubbing the Luke film, when we did as well). The motivation I had, and what I heard from other translators I worked along side of, was to get the people to UNDERSTAND the Scriptures, and thus, to give them the opportunity to choose to know & follow Christ. (Well, there was one single lady translator who admitted that her purpose was to "add stars to my crown".)
It is true, however, that anytime a people movement occurs, there will be those who come in to "cash in" on the movement of God there, to attempt to separate out a large piece of the "pie" as their own "won souls", extending their own denominational line.
0 x
Congregation: Gospel Haven Mennonite Fellowship, Benton, Ohio (Holmes Co.) a split from Beachy-Amish Mennonite.
Personal heritage & general theological viewpoint: conservative Mennonite Brethren.
Bootstrap wrote:I'm not convinced that gullibility is more common among liberals or conservatives or anywhere else on the spectrum. Most of the time, we assume that the other tribe is gullible, and our tribe is not gullible at all, our own tribe is particularly enlightened.
That's one of the things that makes us so gullible.
The JWs are a dangerous cult, but part of what makes them dangerous is that there are important elements of truth that can make them appealing.
A conviction that the Word of God is true
Zealous legalism
Proof texting
Wanting a formula for earning your way to heaven
Strong focus on evangelism, with training and mentoring
People who are actively serving the church
Community and accountability in a group that has its own culture, distinct from mainstream culture
An emphasis on the Kingdom of God, refusing to pledge allegiance to the flag or serve in the military
A small, special group of Christians that is set apart from all those other deluded Christians
So if you don't know much about them, it can be an attractive package for people who really want to do what the Bible says. And if you get lost in the details of proof texting, it's hard to show people what's wrong with the JWs, because they are masters of proof texting.
It's helpful to read the stories of people who have left the JWs. It's also helpful to learn a few big picture problems with their theology and focus on those.
Excellent points-
I honestly am not sure where to go with this but it bothers me very much! At least MAP sends out publications to Amish communities that could warn the Amish- many of their communities have appreciated the publications and do the Sonlight Club & Bible Studies- they put in good articles- I don't know if Mennonites have a way to warn these Amish communities in the same way MAP does-
Josh wrote:The “in home Bible study” method is a popular avenue for cults. It’s worth another thread to explore how they do this. I walked into my friend’s Bible study once, only to find that WMSCOG was running the thing.
Cults who do this tend to use prophecy a lot to push what they are saying. Other groups that don’t use prophecy tend to be a lot more orthodox (like Church of Chridt). The proof texting still happens, but not to prove that, say, Jesus was reincarnated as a Korean man in the 1960s.
What is WMSCOG?
J.M.
World Missionary Society Church of God, which is a quite-successful cult that is currently making a lot of in-roads in Ohio. They have just recently discovered plain people as a "happy hunting grounds", at least in Ohio.
They have the same technique as every other one of these guys: they call themselves just a "church of God" and will avoid saying who they are actually representing. They claim to use "just the Bible". Their missionaries travel in pairs, and have their proof texts memorised and don't use any other notes, although they might draw out a few notes on a plain piece of paper.
Much like JWs, they focus on prophecy, and then focus on telling you exactly how it was fulfilled, including parts that haven't been fulfilled yet. After a few weeks of their spiel, they lay out the case for how first God appeared as the Father, then next God was incarnated as Jesus, and now in the modern era God is incarnated as the Holy Spirit in the form of a Korean man, Ahn Sahng-hong. In each case what we call God has to change (first from God, to Jesus, and then to Ahn Sahng-hong), or else we can't be saved because we are calling on the wrong name. (When this poor guy was alive, he rejected this movement, but after he died his church split into two factions, one being mostly orthodox Seventh-Day Adventism, and the other becoming WMSCOG.)
It is a variant of the many sacred-name heretical groups out there. At a very high level, their theology is the same as Oneness Pentecostals, although their lineage is from Adventism. They do have a peace position, although apparently that doesn't extend to them not filing abusive lawsuits against any people who try to leave. They do practice the veiling. They believe they are a "one true church" group, and that they alone hold the door to salvation, although they believe in a similar way to Oneness Pentecostals, in that they believe salvation is achieved through baptism in the name of the "Holy Spirit", which they think is Ahn Sahgn-hong.
Coming soon to a front door near you: two smiling-faced men carrying just Bibles, ready to convert you.
And just when you thought it was safe to answer the door.............
Bootstrap wrote:So if you don't know much about them, it can be an attractive package for people who really want to do what the Bible says. And if you get lost in the details of proof texting, it's hard to show people what's wrong with the JWs, because they are masters of proof texting.
It's helpful to read the stories of people who have left the JWs. It's also helpful to learn a few big picture problems with their theology and focus on those.
Excellent points-
I honestly am not sure where to go with this but it bothers me very much! At least MAP sends out publications to Amish communities that could warn the Amish- many of their communities have appreciated the publications and do the Sonlight Club & Bible Studies- they put in good articles- I don't know if Mennonites have a way to warn these Amish communities in the same way MAP does-
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a low retention rate relative to other U.S. religious groups. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group. By contrast, about two-thirds of those who were raised as evangelical Protestants (65%) and Mormons (64%) still say they are members of those respective groups.
On education:
Compared with other U.S. religious groups, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to be less educated. A solid majority of adult Jehovah’s Witnesses (63%) have no more than a high school diploma, compared with, for example, 43% of evangelical Protestants and 37% of mainline Protestants.
Bootstrap wrote:So if you don't know much about them, it can be an attractive package for people who really want to do what the Bible says. And if you get lost in the details of proof texting, it's hard to show people what's wrong with the JWs, because they are masters of proof texting.
It's helpful to read the stories of people who have left the JWs. It's also helpful to learn a few big picture problems with their theology and focus on those.
Excellent points-
I honestly am not sure where to go with this but it bothers me very much! At least MAP sends out publications to Amish communities that could warn the Amish- many of their communities have appreciated the publications and do the Sonlight Club & Bible Studies- they put in good articles- I don't know if Mennonites have a way to warn these Amish communities in the same way MAP does-
Jehovah’s Witnesses have a low retention rate relative to other U.S. religious groups. Among all U.S. adults who were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses, two-thirds (66%) no longer identify with the group. By contrast, about two-thirds of those who were raised as evangelical Protestants (65%) and Mormons (64%) still say they are members of those respective groups.
On education:
Compared with other U.S. religious groups, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to be less educated. A solid majority of adult Jehovah’s Witnesses (63%) have no more than a high school diploma, compared with, for example, 43% of evangelical Protestants and 37% of mainline Protestants.
World Missionary Society Church of God, which is a quite-successful cult that is currently making a lot of in-roads in Ohio. They have just recently discovered plain people as a "happy hunting grounds", at least in Ohio.
They have the same technique as every other one of these guys: they call themselves just a "church of God" and will avoid saying who they are actually representing. They claim to use "just the Bible". Their missionaries travel in pairs, and have their proof texts memorised and don't use any other notes, although they might draw out a few notes on a plain piece of paper.
Much like JWs, they focus on prophecy, and then focus on telling you exactly how it was fulfilled, including parts that haven't been fulfilled yet. After a few weeks of their spiel, they lay out the case for how first God appeared as the Father, then next God was incarnated as Jesus, and now in the modern era God is incarnated as the Holy Spirit in the form of a Korean man, Ahn Sahng-hong. In each case what we call God has to change (first from God, to Jesus, and then to Ahn Sahng-hong), or else we can't be saved because we are calling on the wrong name. (When this poor guy was alive, he rejected this movement, but after he died his church split into two factions, one being mostly orthodox Seventh-Day Adventism, and the other becoming WMSCOG.)
It is a variant of the many sacred-name heretical groups out there. At a very high level, their theology is the same as Oneness Pentecostals, although their lineage is from Adventism. They do have a peace position, although apparently that doesn't extend to them not filing abusive lawsuits against any people who try to leave. They do practice the veiling. They believe they are a "one true church" group, and that they alone hold the door to salvation, although they believe in a similar way to Oneness Pentecostals, in that they believe salvation is achieved through baptism in the name of the "Holy Spirit", which they think is Ahn Sahgn-hong.
Coming soon to a front door near you: two smiling-faced men carrying just Bibles, ready to convert you.
And just when you thought it was safe to answer the door.............
J.M.
Since he is interested in the article I have about Marriage, Divorce & Remarriage- I let him know it may take me some time to track it down (which is true, I know in general which 'stack' it probably is) HOWEVER I am not sure I wish to share it with him, I don't want to help him in his endeavor to deceive these people- and still praying about this- I asked why he wanted the article-
part of his reply:
"Take your time. It's just for personal knowledge since we live close
to two communities of Mennonites and I may encounter them in my door
to door preaching activities."
A few years ago I had a conversation with some Mormon missionaries. I told them I was Mennonite, and explained a little about Anabaptists. The missionaries told me there was a group of Amish that had joined their church somewhere north of Columbus (possibly Knox County), and they continued to live a plain lifestyle (though being said by an outsider, that could be interpreted broadly).
I’ve been intrigued by the idea ever since. I don’t have a lot of contacts in that area, but I’ve asked a few people from the area about this group, though no one has heard of them. I don’t imagine it would be a very large group. The missionaries were LDS (mainstream), not from one of the other branches of Mormonism that the Amish might presumably find more common ground with.
